Adam Gaiser of Mark's Commercial: A Quest for PPE Inclusivity

Lisa Laronde  0:01  
Welcome to the powerhouse project, a podcast empowering and celebrating women. I'm your host, Lisa Laronde. Diversity, Equity and Inclusion are increasingly valued today. And I believe a key factor to business profitability and success. I've always said the DNI is a journey and not a destination. And in order to be successful, we all have to work together. One of those ways is that we need to have male allies on the podcast today, I wanted to take a moment to acknowledge one of those allies in the construction industry. Adam Gaiser. Adam is the Associate Vice President of Sales for Mark's Commercial. Welcome to the podcast. Adam.

Adam Gaiser  0:37  
Morning, Lisa, thanks for having me.

Speaker 1  0:39  
Can you just tell us a little bit about yourself and Mark's commercial? Yes,

Adam Gaiser  0:43  
certainly. So I've been with the Marx banner for the last 30 years. So I started working in the stores spent the last 10 years on the commercial side of our business. So marks commercial, as you know, is the business to business arm of our retail division. And I've had the opportunity for the last 10 years to lead a team of 60 sales professionals across Canada.

Lisa Laronde  1:05  
So how did you actually get started in the industry?

You know, it's interesting, I tell this story a lot because it's something I'm actually proud of. I started working when I was 15 years old, I started working in a store, they needed someone to clean toilets and organize the back room. And I started doing that and found a passion for the business and passion for the industry. And was lucky enough when I was 18 years old, like many people coming out of high school didn't know what I wanted to do. I didn't know what I was good at. And I had a gentleman who, who became my ultimate mentor who gave me an opportunity to to learn the trade. And, you know, I got an opportunity to run my own store. And then as things kind of progressed, moved my way up within the organization and I'm sitting here today with you. Are you born and raised from Calgary. I'm an Ontario Boyd heart. I know that. And a lot of friends here in Calgary, but I'm an Ontario boy born in Kitchener Waterloo and diehard blue, blue and white fan. So sorry, oh, my Alberta fans out there.

Speaker 2  2:07  
So what sparked your passion for advocating for gender diversity and inclusion, particularly in our traditionally male dominated industry? You know,

Lisa Laronde  2:16  
it's interesting, I'll be honest with you. For years, I was I was naive, right? Like, I think I was truly naive. And, and I assume that that equity was everywhere, right? Over my career, I have worked with men, women, members of different ethnicities, it was never something to me that I saw as an issue. Right. And truly, I believe I was naive to the fact. And then, you know, as Marx commercial started to build an identity tied into safety, and we started to attend these conferences, you and I have met many events like an orba event or different things. And I realized that there was a massive gap. And you know, what it was, it was actually tough to accept and tough to realize, because you blindly go through your day to day activities, and you just assume that there is no gender gap, or there's no ethnicity gap. Because for me, in all my years, I worked with different men, different women. And I never, I never thought of it that way. I never referenced Oh, I work for a woman, or I work for a men. I worked for the best people who knew how to do the job best. And, you know, unfortunately, as I got more exposure to to the industry, and you know, just to everything that goes on around the country and hearing, I guess for me hearing people's personal stories, yeah, right, people who couldn't go to work, because they couldn't get work boots to fit, or, you know, pulling up on a job site and seeing a 21 year old girl wearing a four XL safety vest, you know, that's when it became a big concern for me and for the rest of our organization as well. So, you know, it was it was a pretty humbling experience. And it still is, right, as you know, we go to these events and people share their stories. And you know, I can't fathom the fact that I don't recall ever hearing a gentleman tell me he couldn't get work boots to go to a worksite and every one of these events, we go to somebody, you know, a member of different ethnicity groups or females around the country keep telling us I can't go do my job. Well, I know

Speaker 2  4:23  
even when I started here, my, my hive is vast was, you know, as small as they could be. I'm not I mean, I'm not a smart person, but it was giant on me. And so you even when you did it up, it was just it was a hazard and obviously I wasn't you know, working on the site, we were just going out and and having team meetings on site. And we're talking, you know, eight, nine years ago to which is interesting today is I just see it's much more prevalent that everyone's talking about, you know, PPE for for women. I'm still I think I'm shocked every day that we're going we're having those conversations now. It's not necessarily even PPE For women, I think it's PPE for different body types. And I think that we can put that to both men and women. I know we have some issues with bigger men that can't get the leg bands on or and, and so we're looking at ways to, to fix that, whether we sewed them together or they, you know, whatever it is. So are you looking at something that's maybe more inclusive? That's not necessarily directed solely at women? Yeah,

Lisa Laronde  5:23  
I think that's a great question. You know, I've talked about this a bit. I think it's incumbent on us to start changing the narrative. And and please don't misconstrue what I'm about to say. But you know, getting PP for women is important, but we've got to stop thinking about it as just getting PPE for women, right, start using the term inclusive PPE, right? Everybody should have access to the same type of PPE regardless of gender, ethnicity, right? And you think about it, it's not just about getting PPE to fit women. Here's another thing when you think about inclusive PP, you know, we talk about getting proper fitting PPE for women. But how about people that need to wear a hard hat? overtop of a turban? Yeah. How about people who have to wear a burqa on an FR site that don't have access to Fr burkas? Like, it's not just about women. And don't get me wrong, not marginalizing that requirement. But it has to be inclusive.

Speaker 2  6:17  
So what are your What are your suggestions? Or your solution?

Lisa Laronde  6:21  
Yeah, you know, I think there's two good points or you know, the suggestions. I think we got it, we got to change the narrative. First and foremost, yeah. And, and it starts there, because as soon as we start using the term inclusive PPE versus women, or men's PPE, I think the conversation changes. So I think that's the first step. I think the other thing is, we've got to start talking about it. Right? We've got to give people a platform to stand up and say, You're not thinking about this, you're missing this, we need this. So from my perspective, it starts there. And then, you know, what, what do I think we can do? Or what are we doing? I think it's about starting to have those conversations and asking people what's important, asking people what the challenges are? I think in so many organizations, we're almost arrogant thinking that we know better than everyone else. Yeah, I agree. Right? And not just not just ours. But I think in general, there's that risk, you're you become an industry expert in something. And people expect you to be that expert. But you forget sometimes to ask the people who really live the challenges day to day. And I think the biggest difference for us is, is we go out to sites, and we meet people. And we actually have a conversation about what the real challenges are. That's how you start to drive change. And so for us, that's where we're starting. But you know, this journey is going to be ongoing for a long time. I'm, I'm incredibly proud of the fact that we're changing the narrative. And proud of the fact the fact that we're having this conversation today, I agree, I think is a massive step in the right direction.

Speaker 2  7:56  
I agree. And I think women particularly and I'll speak strictly in construction, I think that, you know, we want to do this, we want to lead and we want to be successful. And we try to do this all on our own. And we try to solve all these problems. And one of the things that I started to recognize is we really do need, we need a community. And the only way we're going to change this narrative is if we talk about it, and we tell our stories, and we say this is what we're experiencing, because we can't change anything if we don't actually know that it's happening. And that's why I think it's so important to have male allies. But I think it's really interesting, what you said is, you know, go to the front line, what do what do people want, that they don't have access to? And I think I think it's going to be very, very common across the board. I know for some of the issues that we're facing for women in construction, it's a global issue, and one of the first ones is childcare. So I'm assuming with PPE, it's probably a global issue. You know, you're just talking about burkas. I'm sure that's a global issue that, you know, we if we talk about it, and just when you when you started talking, I was like, Oh, I didn't even think about something like that. You think of how how our industry is not inclusive, because people just can't even take the first step to say I wouldn't be able to have the proper fitting equipment to be able to actually work on a job site.

Lisa Laronde  9:07  
And you realize that there is an entire segment of the population that is already at a disadvantage going to a job site. That's when it became, you know, a passion for me is recognizing there are so many people that don't have access to the simplest, like we're talking. I mean, think about this, Lisa, we're talking about the most simplistic things. We're talking about work boots, we're talking about vets that fit with all due respect, as much as we are struggling to get there. It's not brain surgery. Yeah, right. These are these are simple challenges. We haven't even touched on the other things about safety on job sites, right, all of those different things. So So for me, like I said, In the beginning, I was naive for the longest time. But you know, as we started this mission to ensure employees come home safely from work every day, you suddenly realize real quickly that you're speaking to only up portion of the population. Yeah, we need influential people in not just construction, but every industry across Canada to find that same passion. And that's when we'll see results. So, you know, it's all part of a bigger picture for me, you know, ensuring that every person comes home safe, regardless of your gender, regardless of your ethnic background. I mean, the fact that we even have to talk about it, I know, is a pretty telling sign for us. When

Speaker 2  10:27  
I talk to a lot of women that that are in the skilled trades, one of the things that they talk about often is they want to just fit in. So the problem is, when they don't have proper fitting PPE, it's there automatically. Now, you don't look like everybody else, you know, it's obviously oversized, or, or, you know, becomes sometimes a safety hazard. So I think it's really, really important if we wanted to attract and retain women in the skilled trades, that we actually have to have proper fitting PPE. And I know you and I discussed a little bit about the cost of it. And that some of the challenges that we have is because we have only, I think it's two and a half percent of women that are actually in the skilled trades, each organization is not buying volume, because you're probably going to have a handful, if that of women that need and then I'm assuming business wise logically like how do you carry them multiple sizes? And, you know, how do you get to scale because you don't have volume? So what is Mark's commercial done to make sure that obviously, we're offering these products, but you have to be able to make money and be profitable?

Lisa Laronde  11:25  
Yeah, I think that's a great question. Look, I think I want to start by saying, Lee, as much as we've made strides, we're still not completely there to write, I think the biggest thing for us that we're doing is we're not going to wait, we're not going to wait for others to take the lead, we have an opportunity to be an industry leader, go out and listen to what people are doing. And at least start, right. And what we're doing today is probably wrong. Listen, in two years from now, we're going to look back and go, Man, that was a mistake. But it was it was a step in the right direction. So you know, I think for sure, that's part of it is you gotta you got to take a step and try and that's exactly what we're doing. And, you know, we we have access to tremendous resources, tremendous suppliers, that give us the ability to do that. And I think, you know, if there's one thing I would say to the industry, and you and I have talked about this, we've got to stop thinking about creating customized garments. Yeah, as the answer, right? Yes, yes, companies have their logo, and they have company colors. But we've got to start thinking about economies of scale. And not just in, in women's, but inclusive PPE as a whole, we've got to start thinking about economies of scale. Because if if we have five different companies, and all five wants a different version of a vest, for women, that is maybe a color change, or a tweak on a logo placement, there is no longer economies of scale. And that's, that's where we've got to start changing the conversation. There are other ways to customize garments or customized product requirements to companies needs. But you know, I think it goes back to your question, well, what are we doing? We're, we're starting somewhere. And we're going to take the responsibility to carry inventory and bring inventory in to support the demand. And for sure, there's a risk to that, yet, but the reward absolutely outweighs the risk. And we're doing it in a calculated manner. We're not going to try and bring out 1000 different choices. We're going to start, and we're going to see where we get we're going to collect feedback from people and hopefully continue to drive change, and come up with Inclusive PPE for everybody.

Speaker 2  13:37  
I mean, I just think that's amazing. So do you have any emerging technologies or, or innovative PPE designed that would actually meet the needs of all gender workers?

Lisa Laronde  13:50  
So I think there's lots of innovations that we have you and I've talked about many of them. I think as it relates to inclusive PP, I'm not sure it's about innovation. I think it's more about the time we're spending to invest in understanding fit requirements, understand how everybody type is different, whether you're male or female, and really spending our time getting the right fit, because, you know, for the longest time, and this is crazy to say and you and I've talked about as well, but this notion of well, we'll carry will carry inclusive PP, we'll just take a men's shirt, and we'll size it down to a four XL women's shirt. Yep. That that's not inclusive. Like, like, think about that. Imagine, imagine saying to a guy. Look, you're used to wearing these work pants. We need you to go up team sizes, because you're going to wear women's work pants. Yeah, never say. So. So it's not as much about innovation as much as like I said, we have some great technology. It's about investing the time and energy into the unique fit requirements for everybody. Yeah, that's where At the investment has to start. And then once you get that, right, the sky's the limit to what you can do that in terms of introducing innovation. But, you know, I think for us as we look to build inclusive garments, we don't plan to scale them down in terms of the quality or what's built into them, or scale downsizing fits, if we're going to do this, we're going to do it right. And it's going to be right for everybody, thus, achieving inclusive BP.

Unknown Speaker  15:26  
No, do you have partners that you're working with?

Lisa Laronde  15:28  
Yeah, we do. It's it's tough, because as you know, the industry is so segmented, we have tremendous vendor partners, like we are, we are so lucky with the amount of vendor partners we have. But it's such a fragmented business right now. So you know, the, the path we've chosen to take is we're going to partner with vendors and leverage their area of expertise. And while they're working on something, we're going to work on something as well. And we're not going to duplicate efforts. If I know we've got a great vendor partner working on something, why would we want to do that? Let's let them use their expertise. Let's use our expertise on areas that someone isn't working on right now. So yeah, and I think the vendor community is incumbent on every industry to come together. Because the answer is not one company or one vendor, or one industry winning, we win win, everybody wins collectively. And ultimately, the measure of success is when you and I can have a conversation. We don't have to discuss inclusive BP. Do you think that's ever gonna happen? You know what, before you and I leave this business, I sure hope that we can just have a conversation about PPE. Yeah, and stop having to add words in front of it.

Speaker 2  16:41  
And I agree with that. Do you think that we need to get the government involved into these discussions?

Lisa Laronde  16:47  
Yeah, you know, what I think there's, there's always importance to having government involved. I think anytime you have government involved, you gain more resources, you gain more reach. But I don't think it's just about getting them involved in PPE conversations, I think it's getting them to understand all of the unique challenges that exist on job sites across the country to be inclusive. Right, you think about the changes Ontario made recently, to having washrooms on site for women like, like, I can't even comprehend the fact that we have to celebrate the fact that there's a female washroom on a job site.

Unknown Speaker  17:26  
I know. So yeah, I

Lisa Laronde  17:28  
think government can absolutely play a role. I think they have to collect more information. And they have to be prepared to make changes from a regulatory perspective to support change,

Speaker 2  17:40  
it goes back to we have to talk about it, because I don't think people realize that, you know, women didn't have access to a washroom and obviously, you know, we're built differently. And we have different requirements. So it's not like he can, I mean, you can still, you know, go to the bathroom on the side of the road. But I mean, it's going to take a little bit more work to be able to do that. So it's a journey, we have to figure out, how do we work together, you know, the days of saying maybe that this isn't the place for women to be working, I think those days are gone, we just, we have to learn to accommodate. And as you said, maybe not just women, it's everybody. There's all kinds of different people of sizes. And I just think our industry has to be much more inclusive. And again, we're only going to do that if we work together. So well.

Lisa Laronde  18:22  
I think people have to be comfortable and confident to say no, yeah, right. Like, I wish more people would stand up and say no, right? No, I'm not gonna go to a job site, and you're gonna give me PPE that doesn't fit. No, I'm not gonna go to a job site where I don't have a washroom, right? Like this will change until people just simply say, I'm not going to work. Yeah. And when people stop showing up for work, organizations have to change. Right. And,

Speaker 2  18:49  
and I think somebody has to take the lead in that when I was talking to Jamie McMillon. And she's a big woman in the skilled trades advocate. And she's, you know, spoken in the House of Commons. And we talked a little bit about when women complain about, you know, discrimination or harassment. And if they're part of a union hall, they get pushed to the bottom of the list, and then they don't get called for the next job so that now it affects their income. And I've talked to numerous women that have gone through a complaint process similar to this not necessarily about PPE, but a combination of both of PPE, and just the way that they were treated. And then they're, you know, they're labeled as difficult to work with. And then it's a slow time and they get laid off, and then they don't get called back. And I think we just we have to talk about it and support some of these women. And I know at some points that might be a little bit difficult, but we need to have, I'm going to call it a community. But we need a group of women that say we're not we're not going to put up with this. You can't put her to the bottom of the list. We have to talk about it. We have to recognize that this is this is happening. And then once that starts to happen, I think you can say no, I'm not going to work in this job site. And it's easier if you're an employee of an organization than if you're, you know, part of a union hall that's going to a job site. But I think part of that is Again, you know exactly what you're doing at him as you're like you're an advocate. So I think if we have men that can speak with us, and for us, it gives us credibility, I talk a lot about male ally ship, I think that we really needed in order to be successful. And I have had women that have come up to me and said, You know, I want to do this on my own. And I don't think that we need men to help us. And I say, why would we want to do this alone? That doesn't make any sense, want to have a voice to say, look, I've done this, we can do this together. And I think with men, that's what we need is we need your voice to be able to say, look, we need women, PPE. We need women, washrooms on job sites, we need women on job sites. So I know that you're passionate about raising awareness for skilled trades in Canada. So what strategies or initiatives are more encouraging for people to include women to pursue careers in the skilled trades, particularly in construction, but actually, in any industry? You know, it's interesting, this is,

Lisa Laronde  20:49  
this is a really important topic for me, because it's not just about women. It's about, you know, inclusivity in the trades, and it's important for me, because it's personal, right? Like, I think I share this story with you, my son, my one son goes to university, my younger son said to me, you know, with with a look of almost disappointment, he said to me, you know, I don't want to go to university. I want to go to college, and I want to get a trade and he said, Will you be disappointed in me? Because I didn't go to university. Like, yeah, what the, what a slap in the face as a parents. So for me, it started there. But then as you as you tie it back into, you know, getting women into the trades. It's it's not about high schools. It's not about, you know, colleges, we need to start with our children when they're two and three years old. Yeah. Right. Like, like, think about the evolution when you and I grew up. Men played with with Tonka Trucks. Yep. Women played with Barbies. Yep. Right? There was there was no gray area about that. And it was never perceived as wrong. Yep.

Speaker 2  21:54  
I can I can go as far as men or boys didn't wear pink when when I was growing? Absolutely.

Lisa Laronde  21:59  
I mean, you could list hundreds of things that, that we didn't even realize were barriers to equity back then. But, you know, I think we need to start talking to our children about the trades, whether you're male or female, talk about the trades, talk about the fact that, you know, being in construction or being a welder, you can live a very successful life. So I think as we start to talk to these kids, when they're younger, when they're going into school when they're going into kindergarten, and grade one, grade two, grade three, celebrate a young girl who wants to play with it with a Tonka Truck. Yeah, or who is interested in building, it has to start there. Because we know the development of our children starts really early. Yeah, if we don't start teaching them that it's okay. By the time they get to grade five or six, they already have this preconceived notion that they shouldn't be a welder, or they shouldn't be in the construction industry. Yeah, right. And I think that's where it starts, and we need to celebrate those people we need. We need to celebrate our youth that go to colleges, right, and not treat them like they, they ended up going to college because they couldn't get into university. Yeah. But think about how many kids have that feeling right now, think about how many parents are unintentionally sharing that, that view with their kids. I never came out and said that. I never once said that in my life. But my son's perception was yes, university is better. Yeah. So that's, I mean, I could go on with this one forever, because it hit it hit home for me. And I would assume it hits home even harder for parents who have young daughters who are interested, I

Speaker 2  23:38  
did a talk with the Girl Guides and their Rangers. So they're young girls, I think in grade, I'm gonna say like 10 to 12. And it was interesting. One was in auto mechanics, and the other one was in construction. And they were both on the top of their class. These are still young girls, but they were the only girls in their class and the pressure on them, because the boys all thought that they were better than the one girl was, I just loved her. I can see you're gonna be running a construction site one day, and she just said, all I wanted to do was beat this one guy in her class, because he was like the top of the class. And that's all she wanted to do. And she did. But it still even if you think about that in today, and 2024 There's still that perception. And there's only you know, one girl in each of these classes that we haven't actually achieved saying to people in general, but particularly women that it's okay to go into the trades. And she'll call well, does honor they work. And she's targeting primary schools. So I've actually talked to primary teachers to say exactly what you've just said, you need to hit them in primary to say, these are options that are available to you. Here's some trades that are really good. And I agree with you, you can actually run your own business. It's not like you have to be a general laborer. There's 144 skilled trades in Ontario that you can choose from. There's just a ton of opportunity for us. I just have a funny story of three kids. I've I've two boys and then my daughter is the youngest. So when she was a baby All she had was and because she's the third one, they don't get much attention. All she had to play with was Batman's the toys. And I remember bringing her to my babysitter at the time. And she was like Lisa, she needs a doll. And I was like, first of all, I don't have any time. I don't have any money. And you know, we have all these toys. So she just played with gargoyles and Batman because that was a thing. And for Christmas, she bought her a Barbie. And my daughter cried for like 15 when she was like, I don't like what is this getting away from me. But it's sad how that's what we start to do to them. Right? Is this is what boys do? This is what girls do. So yeah, think about

Lisa Laronde  25:31  
it applies to sports, it applies to everything. Yes. You mentioned earlier about, hey, what can government do? I think one of the things that government can do is start introducing exposure to trades in earlier years of school yet, right? Like you think about it most, most students have to wait to grade 1011 or 12. To the truly exposed to it. I'm not suggesting you give a student you know, in grade six a welding course, I'm not. I'm already nervous about giving my son one, grade 11 or 12. But I think you have to start letting them hammer and nail. Yeah, right, use a saw, like those are the things that the government can do to help we need to start thinking about, if you want these people to get into trades when they're 1819 and 20. They can't learn it when they're 17, exactly how much time that's passed. So I think that's a, that's an opportunity for government to absolutely step in and drive positive change.

Speaker 2  26:22  
And I agree, and I know that skilled trades is now part of the Ontario curriculum, but the problem is they haven't given them any resources to be able to roll it out. So it's exactly as you say, Now teachers have part of a curriculum that we just haven't actually fought that whole process out. So it would be nice to be able to do things, you know, I think in a manner that is going to be successful, and not just ad hoc to ensure that we actually get people that want to not only want to get into the skilled trades, but that want to stay in the skilled trades, and actually make it better and start promoting it. And I think we need to celebrate more skilled trades so that people can see what they're doing. I guess there's an Ontario or is it a Canadian skills? Competition? Yep. And I think, you know, until I've been in this industry, I really hadn't heard about it. So I think we need to do a better job of highlighting and promoting it so that people can actually see that there's, you know, there's, there's a lot of really cool things that you can do with it within the skilled trades.

Lisa Laronde  27:13  
Absolutely. And think about the influence that teachers have on our lives. Right. Like, I'm sure both of us could list off teachers that positively changed our lives. Yeah, definitely. But they weren't teachers in

Unknown Speaker  27:24  
also also negatively.

Lisa Laronde  27:26  
Yes. Yeah, that's true, too. I was. I was trying not to go down that path. But you're absolutely right. But you think about teachers, like imagine having a construction teacher in grade seven? Yeah. A young girl could say when she was 19, that she went into the skilled trades because of what she was exposed to in grade seven. Like, that's powerful. Yeah.

Speaker 2  27:45  
Yeah, I think we need to bring all that back. I agree. So if you could go back, what advice would you give your younger self? Oh,

Lisa Laronde  27:52  
man, I go back and give myself advice every day. You know, there's, I think there's a couple of things. For me, I've always said this, you know, I get to work with so many amazing people and new people coming into our business. And a couple things I've always said to people is, number one, believe in yourself. Right? Like no one, no one is going to believe in you the way you believe in yourself. I agree. Right? I think that's, that's very important. It was very important for me, because when I came into this business, I had no idea what I was doing. And I was lucky enough to have a mentor who's still my mentor today, who believed in me. And I needed to have the same belief in myself that he did. Yeah, so that would be number one, I would say, number two, don't change who you are. Right? Be your authentic self, you and I talk about authenticity all the time. That's one of the things that I admire about you. But it's, it is being authentic to who you are. Right? People, people believe that when you get into positions of leadership, for example, you have to change who you are. You don't ever change who you are. You change the things you do. And you change the conversations you have. Yeah, but you need to be true to your authentic self. And I would say the third is surround yourself with brilliant people. Like, honestly, I am surrounded by some of the most intelligent people. Yeah, you know, my peer who I work with day in and day out, right? It is surround yourself with brilliant people, and they make you smarter. And if you challenge if you surround yourself with brilliant people, they come up with the solutions, right? Um, let's be honest, I'm not I'm not the sharpest knife in the drawer many times. But I have people around me who are so intelligent, that make me smarter and bring great ideas to the table. So I could give you 30 different pieces of advice. But those are the three I always think about, because I remember the times where I didn't do it. Yeah.

Speaker 2  29:42  
And actually, when I talk, those are probably the three things that I tell people. That would be my advice. I think you really do need to believe in yourself and I really believe strongly you need to surround yourself with people that are smarter than you, as well as those that will support you. I think it's very important and challenge

Lisa Laronde  29:57  
you. Yeah, Absolutely, I want people that are gonna challenge me because I'm right, like, just make me better. And if you don't like something, tell me why you don't like it. Let's find a better way. Please do not let me go down a path that I should like maybe I don't have all the information, really, you need to challenge I think that that's really important. It's very, very difficult for people to challenge people in authority. So, Adam, I want to thank you so, so much for joining us today on the powerhouse project. I think it's important to celebrate our male allies and to acknowledge their contributions because we can't do this alone. Thank you for the work you've done to change the narrative. And for your ally ship, your advocacy for women, and your inclusivity does not go unnoticed.

I want to thank you for your advocacy to I've said this to you before you're a trailblazer in this industry in the fact that you fight every day, it needs to be recognized. So I know you'll hate me saying that, but you are absolutely a trailblazer. And thanks for fighting for it. I appreciate it. Thanks, Adam. Thanks for having me. Appreciate it. Lisa. This was great.