Maggie Casey: In Pursuit of Fairness

Lisa Laronde (00:01.864)
Welcome to the Powerhouse Project. I'm your host, Lisa LaRonde. From breaking barriers to shaping industries, the Powerhouse Project highlights diverse voices and perspectives. Today we have Maggie Casey, who is a civil litigator focusing on employment, human rights, and labor law. Welcome to the Powerhouse Project, Maggie. Let's start with, tell us about yourself.

Maggie Casey (00:19.438)
Hi.

Hi, Lisa, I jumped in. I was so excited. Thank you. Thank you for having me on. As you introduced, I'm a lawyer at a firm called Mann Lawyers in Ottawa, Ontario. So we are a mid -sized firm that's based, we have an office here in Ottawa and then in a small town outside of Ottawa called Perth. And we do all types of law. I, as you said, I'm a civil litigator. And so I do general civil litigation. So that's commercial work. We do some construction.

We do anytime a company is suing another company, we do a lot of that work. And then on top of that, I do employment law and a little bit of labor law as well. So that's primarily our firm does employee and employer side work. But my favorite is the employee side work. And I'm just getting started. So I'm a brand new lawyer. This is my first year.

out of law school. So I'm, yeah, new to the corporate world and getting a sense of it all and taking it all in. It's been quite the journey so far.

Lisa Laronde (01:23.495)
That's awesome. So you've lived in quite a few countries. How do you think that those experiences shaped either who you are today or just some of the experiences that you've had?

Maggie Casey (01:33.614)
So like you mentioned, I grew up overseas and so we lived in Africa for a little bit. My parents were in Africa, we lived in Belgium and then I spent most of my childhood primarily in the Middle East, in Saudi Arabia and in Oman and then in Southeast Asia, in Malaysia and Indonesia. And so that's been, I think, a really big part of who I am and I think resiliency is the word that would come to mind when I think about the way that I grew up.

obviously it was an immense privilege to get to experience all of these different cultures and places, but also as a child, you know, when you think about it now as an adult, the getting to travel and do all that sort of stuff is just really seems like a privilege, but when you're a kid, you don't really realize it the same way. And a lot of it is the difficulty of moving schools. If you're not moving, your friends are moving. It's a very transient experience. You're not with your grandparents. You're not with your family. You're far away. And so I think what I learned,

And what has helped me particularly in the law is the resiliency of knowing that you can be picked up and transported and you can have the experience of not knowing what is going on for the first couple of months while you adjust to a new school and also to a new culture and having the confidence that you will figure it out. And so that's something that has been incredibly valuable to me in my experience as a lawyer is that those, when you start your career and you feel like you don't know what's going on, other people are underestimating you too. There's a sense that.

Okay, like I have been here before. I have not known what is happening before. I have been the new person and I have made it work. And it gives you a sense of like confidence in your abilities to make any situation work and not to panic. And that was kind of initial feelings of chaos when you're like, I am out of my elements and I do not know what is going on. And I can have the self, you know, reflection to be like that. You were also out of your element in grade one, five, eight, you know, 10, when you moved all of those.

Lisa Laronde (03:17.32)
Ha!

Maggie Casey (03:30.542)
experiences. So that's been a big part for me and that I think has been the biggest value added in terms of my experience. And then of course being able to connect with people from different cultures and being able to find quickly moments where you can talk about people who have different experiences than yourself has been really helpful as well.

Lisa Laronde (03:49.)
And I think that's really interesting. I think just experiencing different cultures just gives us a different perspective that we would never have had. So was language barrier ever an issue for you or did most of the places that you were in, it was English?

Maggie Casey (04:04.814)
So I was always in school in English, but yes, definitely language was a huge part. So Malaysia in particular, so that's where I did high school, that was pretty easy because the English is their second language. So Bahasa is their first language and then English. So that wasn't ever too difficult. But I mean, it's crazy to think like I'm still pretty young, but the internet has changed the game so much that even like now when I go back to Malaysia, when I travel now,

the language is almost not an issue because you have your phones which have data which translate things on the spot for you. But even like when I was in high school, I had a cell phone but we didn't have like data the way that we had now. Like you didn't have internet the same way. So definitely then and in other places where we lived, it was much more of an issue. I mean, we lived in Saudi, right? So that's like a completely different cultural experience. I mean, talk about the female experience. I remember I was like shocked when I realized that like women like...

I remember realizing that my mom knew how to drive because in Saudi she didn't drive. And then we would come back in Canada in the summer. And I guess whatever age I was, I connected. I was like, what is going on? Why are you driving? She's like, of course I can drive. And I was like, well, I just watched you not drive for a whole year. What are you talking about? And yeah, being like, oh yeah, I thought those different experiences. So definitely language, but I think too, culture. Just the people live so differently in other places than they do.

Lisa Laronde (05:14.216)
That's hysterical.

Maggie Casey (05:28.398)
in Canada.

Lisa Laronde (05:30.024)
Now do you think that that is partially what inspired you to pursue a career, especially with the human rights that you're doing?

Maggie Casey (05:36.462)
Yeah, I think 100%. And when I, you know, lots of people go into law and I think when you talk to lawyers, the common thread that they will say of why they wanted to do it and what was most rewarding was wanting to help people. And like that is no different for me. But I think what really inspired me, because you can help people in a lot of ways, you know, your daughter is a teacher, my parents are teachers. That is like one of the most incredible things that you can do to help people. But when I thought about what really inspired me was like learning about like the systems of like oppression and privilege.

And that was really on a bigger scale what fascinated me. And I think that came from living overseas and seeing the ways that the laws drastically impact culture. So yes, culture is there, but it also is drastically impacted by the way that laws happen. And it goes back and forth. And that kind of connection was incredibly interesting. And I was able to see that by being, you know, if you take somewhere like Saudi Arabia.

which is had a lot of really strict laws about what you could and couldn't do, particularly for women at the time. I was there in the early 2000s versus Oman, which is a Middle Eastern country, same Arabic culture, but because the laws were different, the experience of living there was also so drastically different. And it was a lot more women drove, you didn't have to wear, if you weren't Muslim, the headdresses and the abayas, and it allowed for a much more diverse cultural experience.

And that was primarily because of law. It wasn't because they weren't Arabic or they weren't from a different region. All of those things stayed the same. And that really interested me in the way that how does like a society, the importance of a legal system and the way that impacts a society and then wanting to understand it. I think my pull to law was wanting to understand the way that the law like has oppression and privilege and how do people navigate it? Like it's so complicated. Like how do you fight for your rights or fight for other people's rights within the legal system?

Lisa Laronde (07:27.112)
And I think it's really interesting. I know just being in a obviously a male dominated industry and construction. And one of the things that we look at is, you know, how do we find our voice or how do we how do we unite our voices so that we can actually fight for just some common, you know, maybe it's not maybe decency is the wrong word, but just some common ground so that we're on equal footing. It's surprising to me that in 2024, I mean, we still have to have these conversations. I was at a session that they were saying there was no human in Ontario. There were no human rights.

There were no women human rights complaints in construction in Ontario, which I found that really hard to believe. So that means that there's something that doesn't allow us to actually go through the process. There was one in Alberta and none in Ontario. So can you just speak to why or just why you think that we would not have any complaints?

Maggie Casey (08:19.342)
I mean, that's a huge part about the law is to get there and to like, you know, register it or bring your complaint forth. There is such massive barriers to like justice. And so particularly when you think about our legal system, so if we take Ontario, there's the criminal system. So in that case, you know, if you're charged with a crime, you have to, it's not the victim necessarily, that's like paying for the government to like persecute.

let's say the murderer, you know, like that's happening. That's a funded, a publicly funded system that has its own problems too. But in our system, like a human rights system, it's civil. So the way that those complaints are coming, if we're talking about the legal system, so if we're talking about like, you know, let's say under the Ontario Human Rights Code, that has to be funded by the victim to bring that like complaint. There's no public like system. We don't have public defenders in that sense. It's all private. It's all happening within the civil system that, you know, I operate in. And so,

Yeah, like it's and then what happens is what you're saying is people equate the fact that there aren't cases being brought forward with the fact that those issues aren't happening. And that is the inherent that is like the failure of like the legal system in terms of justice in that that is where you lose it and where there's so many in order to even get in front of and engage in the legal system requires a certain amount of like privilege.

Lisa Laronde (09:26.024)
Exactly.

Maggie Casey (09:42.446)
money, sophistication, like that's a huge part that's hard to talk about, but the level of sophistication, do you have time to navigate it or are you working 15 hour days with three kids that you have to, you know, fund? And so that's a big part. And then like culture. So potentially in the construction industry, I don't know what you find, but is there kind of like, you shouldn't really be completely, you're almost ratting out your other, like your coworker and your own, and you're turning on your own almost is I wonder if that's part of it too.

Lisa Laronde (10:12.136)
Well, it is interesting that I'm starting, we were just having much more conversations about, we have to keep talking about it because what happens is exactly what you're saying. If we don't talk about it, people think it doesn't exist. And that's really, I think, what we need to start changing this narrative, that it does exist, that there is a lot of harassment and discrimination in the workplace. And the only way that I think that we're gonna actually change how it works is to talk about it and to tell our stories. So do you know that in Canada we've made significant strides,

in trying to protect human rights. Do you believe that there's still work to be done to address the systemic?

Maggie Casey (10:47.47)
Yeah, absolutely. And I think kind of building off what you were saying earlier, one of the big things too is in the legal system. So what I have noticed is that we actually see like a lot of human cases, human rights cases that come before us, but they settle. And so that means that they're not getting like recorded. And so that's something that's really interesting. And I think it's both a positive because it means that things aren't being litigated or being dragged through the court system, which is like,

Lisa Laronde (11:05.)
Oh.

Maggie Casey (11:16.366)
you know, to be honest, as somebody who sees it every day, like kind of a nightmare for the victims. But what you lose then is the reporting system. And people then, you get, victims then get some sort of money in compensation, which is good, and they settle, which is good. And as a lawyer, that's 99 % of the time I'm trying to get a settlement for my clients. It's not usually good, but it doesn't help change like the system. And that's been one of the hardest things that I've found is because like you said, it's not getting reported on. People aren't talking about it.

Most settlements are, you have to sign like a confidentiality and a non -disparagement. So it silences the victim. So it's like an individual victory, but not a collective victory. And that is, I think a big part of when we look at human rights is how do we, yes, our legal system works to help people get some money. And oftentimes that is going to be better than going through the legal system, but we still need to do a lot more outside of the legal system, like something like this podcast or...

within the workplace connecting people because the otherwise the experience is that everybody's having these things and they feel isolated and that it's a little bit their fault and all of those things, even if they technically get a good settlement. And what I didn't realize is just how common it is, right? Like every day our phone rings with these types of cases and it's still happening so commonly, but because of the way the legal system works, it's not getting like reported on, but it absolutely is there. And there's absolutely a lot of work.

to be done. Employers are getting, so if we talk about it in the employment space of human rights, because that's my particular area, I mean, the criminal system, there's tons of things that do it, but in my area, employers are getting better and people are more conscious of it. It's a lot more in the news. People are, take harassment. If they hear, if an employee says that they have been harassed, that tends to be taken more seriously.

but it's still happening a lot. And I think that's part of the problem too.

Lisa Laronde (13:15.784)
And I know that we found what started to happen was we would do this complaint process and that would be, you know, you go forward, they do the investigation and then at the end of the day, they can't prove anything. And so to me, it was just a failed process. And I know, and I agree with you, I think, you know, we need our laws in place and I agree, I think it's nice that you can settle, but we really need to start talking that.

that if we are settling and we have our individual wins, we still were not doing this collective win as a group. And I think that that's really what needs to change. Or, you know, things like you're saying, maybe get on podcasts or get it newsworthy so that we can actually get the message out there that this continually exists.

Maggie Casey (13:58.414)
And one of the big things too, if you think about like tangible changes, so I think that's a lot of I think, but like, what can we do kind of incrementally? I think one of the things would be not, if you're gonna have like a human rights settlement, you know, potentially talking about maybe there isn't, you're not allowed to have like confidentiality clauses, right? Maybe it's like, yes, you can pay people out so that it doesn't litigate and it stays, but really being.

careful about the way that we're allowed to just have people sign away their rights to ever speak about it ever again. I think that's something that really hurts the development of human rights in Canada that you can't expect people to not take the money if it's there. But then maybe it's we recognize that this isn't something that we should be for the greater good of like our society and the development of human rights, like muzzling basically through that process. So that's something that I think about, you know, advocating about and working on of reducing the use of these like,

huge settlement clauses. I mean, that has a lot of other implications too, but I think that's something as well because when you restrict people's right to speak about it, it really is fundamental to both their dignity and our ability to effect change on a greater scale.

Lisa Laronde (15:07.176)
I 100 % agree with you. So for workplace discrimination and harassment that continues to be a significant issue, do you feel that the labor law and the anti -discrimination laws are working together? Or do you feel like that's creating a fair and inclusive workplace?

Maggie Casey (15:21.902)
Yeah, and so I mean, I think in the legal sphere too, it's like what, so labor law is typically like union -based work. So that is gonna have its own set of laws in the way that the union like runs a grievance and that process. When I talk about employment law, we have the two kind of big pieces of legislation as the Employment Standards Act and then the Ontario Human Rights Code.

And the reason why I picked this area of law is fundamentally they are rights giving pieces of legislation. So the Employment Standards Act says like no matter what contract you sign, like you cannot sign a contract that says you're gonna get paid $2 an hour, right? We're like that, no, it has to be 16, whatever minimum wage is now. That's what it has to be. And if you sign a contract, it's invalid. And so these actually are really powerful pieces of legislation and it's easy to,

be critical and I find that, you know, I'm so young, I'm so like want to change the system and like make it better and like I rushed to all to see all the problems. But I think fundamentally that's why I picked this area of law because I was proud of the legislation that we actually do have in Canada and in Ontario about this. And it is fundamentally we are continuing in every amendment that we work on, we're continuing to give more and more rights. You know, there's bills, it hasn't been passed yet, but there's bills being read about.

you have to disclose pay, right? That's a big one. I think for women in particular, when you, if you don't know what the salary range is, women will statistically underestimate themselves nine times out of 10. And I'm not, that's it. I made that up. So don't quote me on that particular statistic that I just realized, you know, it's like, I don't actually have the study that backs that up, but it's well known, right? That you will, women will underestimate themselves. And so things like that, like employers have to put.

the salary ranges up on it. They have to give more information so you're not wasting all these times applying for jobs that are below what you want. And so those types of laws do help to create a better system and they do work, you know, with the Ontario Human Rights Code. And so, for example, you're allowed to be fired for pretty much any reason in Ontario, like your boss can fire you for whatever reason. What they have to do is give you your entitlements upon being fired, right? So if they fire you because they, you know,

Maggie Casey (17:40.718)
don't like that you wore a blue shirt, then that's fine, but they have to give you your entitlements. But then the Ontario Human Rights Code comes in and says, all right, wearing a blue shirt is not a protected grounds, but you can't fire everybody because they're a woman, or you can't fire anybody because they took Ramadan off. You can't fire anybody. You can't fire for these protected reasons. And so that's how those two pieces of legislation work together to create a...

our environment and our legal system. And it helps. It helps. I think it's not perfect, but we do have some pretty strong protections in place and some of the best in the country, in particular in Ontario, we have a strong legal framework.

Lisa Laronde (18:28.04)
So now, as a young woman in a male -dominated industry, similar to, you know, it's interesting, the more women that I speak to, I thought construction was this predominantly male -dominated industry. But now I've talked to women in healthcare, and they're saying the same thing. I've talked to women in entertainment, they're saying the same thing. And so I'm assuming that the legal profession is primarily male -dominated.

Maggie Casey (18:42.798)
Hmm.

Lisa Laronde (18:53.32)
So what challenges have you faced, and I know your journey's been a little short, but what challenges have you faced in becoming a lawyer, and how did you overcome them?

Maggie Casey (19:01.39)
So, I mean, I think that is one of the biggest shockers that I have experienced. I mean, I'm not gonna pretend like through most of university, I went to Queens University, I studied in liberal arts, it was predominantly female. Law school is now predominantly female and not only is the actual numbers predominantly female, the people who are massively successful in law school and in undergrad are women. Like we are incredible students, we do incredible at the university sphere. And so,

I have always been engaged in these issues of gender equity and in particular the experience of women and women of different intersectionalities. But it was, and I'll admit it, and this has been the biggest learning curve, a largely theoretical exercise. And I wonder.

you know, women of different generations. I think it might even be the opposite where it's been like the lived experience has always been there, but the actual like theory of like feminism and stuff is something we've really dug into recently. I know that sometimes it's almost like flipped, whereas I felt like I had all this theory about what oppression and privilege was, but my lived experience was pretty minimal in school. And then I started and you're like, oh my gosh, it's real.

What? And I don't even think I realized how much I thought that it was theoretical and how much the experience is so different than being in school. It really is. And so it's, and listen, my firm, like the majority of the partners at my firm are women. So it's not that it's, there aren't, it isn't there or that it's particular to my firm or my place. But when you're in a client centered industry,

when I am primarily serving people and I'm in litigation, so it's people being sued or suing somebody else. So they are unhappy, stressed and scared. And so you start to see all of these biases come out of people because they're in their kind of worst case scenario. And so things like, well, we don't really want you because we want somebody that's assertive. We don't really want a woman because we're worried that other people won't take you seriously. Like that's a big one. And people saying, well,

Lisa Laronde (20:48.328)
Yeah. Yeah.

Maggie Casey (21:08.302)
you know, judges are mainly male. So we're kind of, it's not, we don't really care about it being a woman, but we're worried that if you're a woman and the judge doesn't take you seriously, then that's going to hurt our case. And like, why say that like to your face? Like, and that's hard, right? I think because you were like, you're kind of, it's like the clients kind of always, right? Like you're supposed to help them part of its age. They're underestimating you because you're young. But the other part is like, they'll, they think they.

being young and a woman is worse than being young and a man. The way that my younger male peers are being treated is they have a little bit of the same kind of ageism and fear of being inexperienced, but it's assaged by the fact that they are a man and they are then assumed to be assertive. They are assumed to be used to fighting for things. And in litigation, yeah, you're fighting. You are literally arguing all day every day, and that is an inherently un -female trait. And that, I think, is something that I've really experienced. And then,

when you feel that way and you feel underestimated, then your other male lawyers don't necessarily see it the same way that you do. They're like, oh, it's just like an unhappy client or you just have to do that. And you're like, but that's like an inherently isolating feeling to be like, they don't want me because of something that I have no control over. And that is difficult. And I think the experience in the workforce has been very different than I thought it was going to be and very different than the experience of being in.

of being in school, quite frankly.

Lisa Laronde (22:36.648)
Yeah, and I think I had a similar experience when I started the same thing and I said, you know, I was always taken seriously. People always listen to my ideas and my suggestions. I'm smart. I have business acumen. I'm passionate. And I get into this industry and everybody was like, first of all, didn't even want to talk to me, wouldn't approach me in any social situation. And it was like, all of a sudden, I added zero value and I was irrelevant. And truly, I understand, I actually went through an executive coach because it really...

Maggie Casey (22:44.078)
Yeah. Yeah.

Lisa Laronde (23:03.656)
threw me off my game and I really lost my confidence because I was like, why do all these people think that I can't do this job? It was just, it was so, so surprising to me. And that's kind of where I started to say, if I'm feeling that somebody who's, you know, at the latter part of my career and who I feel like I'm very confident and I speak my mind, if that can actually, you know, take me off my game, I can imagine this next generation coming up and getting exposed to something similar and just how much that that would change.

you know, even do you stay, do you continue to fight? I was reading now in the Globe and Mail about now women in these C -suites that they're just, they're so stressed out that they're saying it's not worth it anymore, it's not worth the fight. So.

Maggie Casey (23:44.366)
I totally agree and I wonder too, Lisa, when you talk about imposter syndrome, one thing that I've been thinking a lot about is yes, there's imposter syndrome, which is the sense that you feel that you are not worth it and you don't believe your traits and stuff. But when I listen to you talk and kind of what I'm feeling, it's like, imposter syndrome, it's not even that I don't believe it, it's that other people are telling me that they don't believe me. It's almost like the idea is like, oh, imposter syndrome is such a big thing, it's almost like you're.

Lisa Laronde (24:07.176)
Yeah. Yeah.

Maggie Casey (24:12.494)
almost kind of again, being blamed for feeling like insecure in the workplace. It's like, well, you don't believe in see your own success. And you're like, I kind of feel like it's, I wonder for people, minorities. I mean, I think too, like women of color experience it more people with disabilities. It's like other people telling you, you have sure your own doubts, but then it's kind of like other people also telling you that you're not good in or they're not sure if you'll be able to do it. Like the doubt of other people. And I've found that it's like,

It's less the imposter syndrome and more like them almost not believing and then that feeds it. But it's, then you almost kind of feel blamed for feeling like insecure. It's this weird, I don't know if that resonates at all with you, but I've been thinking about that a lot.

Lisa Laronde (24:49.992)
It 100 % resonates with me. I think that that's why everyone said, you know, did I go through this imposter syndrome? I was like, no, I always knew I could do the job. I'm qualified. I'm confident. But it's exactly. People just don't take you seriously. So it's very, very hard to accomplish things when people are like really setting up barriers to try to make you fail. That's kind of what I felt was happening. I felt like people were like truly against me, speaking up against me. I was always having to prove myself. You know, it's interesting now because now I'm on the other side where...

Maggie Casey (25:19.662)
Mm -hmm.

Lisa Laronde (25:20.296)
I don't feel I have to do that all the time, but I actually just had a situation on like last Thursday and I was like, it's fucking happening again. It's like I have to prove myself. No, this is not what happened. I mean, I've worked here long enough. You have to at some point believe that I know what I'm doing and you can't be listening to the other white men that just speak up occasionally and now it turns everything back into this, you know, are you sure you know what you're doing? Are you confident? It's now it's mind boggling to me. I'm still in 2024, I'm still dealing with it.

Maggie Casey (25:49.582)
100 % and like the labor that that takes, right? Like the work and the time that that takes. And like, that's what makes you feel like, oh, like, is this worth it? Right? Because you're doing your job that is hard. And I think like that's when you look at like, I mean, kind of in all industries, there's like, you're doing a hard, when you're like in the C -suite or you're moving up in the world, like your job is not easy. Like that is like, I think about that as like, my job is like very hard. Like I'm thinking every day, like.

My little brain, it's like a little workout for my brain every day, thinking so hard. And then you have that too. And then if you're not careful and you don't put up those things, then you internalize that. And then that's when it starts to go. And then you're almost blamed for being like, well, you don't have confidence in yourself. And it's like, it's not me. I had it, but you guys made it so hard. And I agree. And it's happening still at your level. And I'm like, I definitely feel, I mean, being young doesn't.

like help that either. Like, you know, one of my friends and we were like talking about like getting like Botox or whatever and I was like, I can't afford Botox. I need my wrinkles. Like nobody will take me seriously until I look weathered. Like I can't do that. Are you kidding me? I was like, I need them like drawing my little wrinkle lines in so I don't have to spend the first 15 minutes trying to like prove that I know what I'm doing.

Lisa Laronde (26:59.784)
Hahaha!

Lisa Laronde (27:04.84)
Yeah, and it's funny, even on construction sites, we have the same problem. Some women say they put on a wedding ring, even though they're not married, so that they give this perception that, you know, just the different strategies that you have to use to be taken seriously. And I agree with you, it takes this mental capacity that when you're really, really busy and you have a lot going on, sometimes I just don't, I just, some days ago, I don't have the mental capacity to be able to strategically deal with this situation. Then I know I have to deal with strategically, because I don't want to come across as...

you know, it's like the scorned woman or, you know, are you having a bad day or, you know, are you on your period? It's like, it's, yeah, it's amazing to me. But I do hope and I have all this confidence in the next generation that we can figure out. And I think, again, these kinds of forums that we can actually, you know, talk together, that people understand that you're not alone, we all deal with it, and we just have to figure out ways to be able to accomplish that.

Maggie Casey (27:38.894)
This is difficult. Like.

Lisa Laronde (28:01.192)
So we discuss a lot about mentorship and sponsorship. Have you found either in your career developing whether it's been mentorship or sponsorship?

Maggie Casey (28:03.566)
Mm.

Maggie Casey (28:10.03)
And I think to like that is the big difference. And so the way that I still feel like coming into like the corporate world has been like jarring. And then I'm like, oh my God, like they really do just trust men way more than they trust a woman, both opposing counsel, like judges, like clients. I have felt, but I'm like, I can't. And so that has been like truly difficult, I think for me. But what has been amazing is that at least for me, I have women that I can see that have been successful.

Lisa Laronde (28:23.08)
Yeah.

Maggie Casey (28:39.726)
above me and that relate to you in a way that even the kindest most understanding like male co -worker or male lawyer like doesn't quite get it the same way of like that the way that it just feels so weird to like be told to your face or be kind of when somebody's like why don't you just be a little bit softer you know like a man's just like that's just like a word that they said to you and i'm like that has years of like oppression like in me i was like that it just feels like putting a blanket of

Lisa Laronde (29:01.928)
Yeah.

Maggie Casey (29:06.478)
like all of the times that like the women come before we have been quieted. But I can go down the hall and say that. And then, you know, the like the senior lawyer that's, you know, now partners, like, are you kidding me? Like, who is that client? Like we don't, you know, like they're like, what are we talking about? What's going on? And they have that. And so that is like truly invaluable. And I think why it's really just so important that we keep women, we don't lose women at that like mid level. I don't know if that happens in construction, but we lose lawyers at that like.

right around when they start having kids, right at that like 35 point, the drop off starts to happen. But it means everything to me that you have women to do that mentorship and that leadership because the oppression is still there and then like misogyny is still baked in our culture. And so you need it. Like that's the part that I've realized is like I truly need the support of the women who have been successful.

Lisa Laronde (30:00.424)
Yeah, I agree. And they're calling the middle managers the broken rung now because they're saying is this for construction, we have a great track record of attracting women into the industry. But then it's exactly as you said, you get to this childbearing years and there's not a, we don't have a good mechanism to be able to have women that want to do both. And I actually interviewed Robin Patak and so it was funny, she's the vice president of sales for Canada for P &G and she said, I didn't, I,

Maggie Casey (30:05.422)
Mmm.

Maggie Casey (30:28.334)
I did.

Lisa Laronde (30:30.088)
didn't want, I can't remember what she said, but she said, I wanted it all. I just wanted it all. I wanted to have my family, wanted to have my career, I wanted to keep moving up. And she was lucky enough to work four days a week so she could spend, she had twins. And it just worked for her, yeah. And I said, you know what Robin, you gotta tell your story a little bit more because it's important that people understand that we can do it all. And I'm not saying you have to, everybody has to do it all because some people want to stay home with their kids and that's perfectly fine, but that means you're doing exactly what you want to do.

but other people want to have their kids and have a career and do it all. And I think we should be able to do that. I also say now, the traditional families have changed. You have same -sex parents, you have blended families. You still don't know who the primary caregiver is anymore. So we need to have benefits set up so that both parties can actually manage both a family as well as a career.

Maggie Casey (31:22.702)
And I think that's a big part too when I look at like our firm is like having men take like kind of extended periods of time off when I look at that, those like childbearing years, because that also like normalizes, you know, the law is like inherently like competitive. So you come in as a junior associate and it's about billing. So it's about the amount of in the private sector. And so if you are...

it's developing your client base, it's billing, it's all those things. And so you take a year off, then it's like, oh, I'm behind. And then you feel stressed about that. And then you're like, well, maybe I don't even come back because I'm too far behind. But if we have men also taking chunks of time off, whether it's for mental health leave or it's for parental leave, different types of things, that helps to normalize that in those peak young family years, traditionally, that people are kind of in and out. I think that really helps too.

And just seeing women who have done it, I think that is just so great and such as somebody who's at the beginning of it, being like, okay, it is possible, they did it. And it is so cliche, but it really makes you feel like you can do it too. And if you didn't have that, it would feel so difficult. And so I'm so grateful for the generations that have come before me that did not have those role models, did not have...

Lisa Laronde (32:22.696)
Yeah.

Maggie Casey (32:39.182)
president of the companies being women to look to and to be able to do it anyways, because it does make such a big difference. And I think it helps to normalize the way that men interact in the spheres too.

Lisa Laronde (32:52.648)
And I agree. And now my executive leadership team is actually, you know, I think we're 50 -50, women and men. And I'll tell you, I love coming, I mean, I've always loved coming into work because I love what I do, but I really enjoy coming in. It makes a huge, huge difference when you have women at the senior level. And we have a lot of young, young people that work here that, you know, just starting their family. And it's nice. And I keep saying to one, she has two young kids. And I was saying, you know, you need to talk about this. You need to tell people how it works.

Also that it's really hectic and it's really frustrating and that's okay. As long as we have this community that we can share stories and exchange ideas together. I think that's so important.

Maggie Casey (33:24.046)
Yeah. Yeah.

Maggie Casey (33:31.726)
Yeah, totally normalizing it. Like I even think about, you know, just the other week, you know, the partners kind of came into my office and they had like some news and it was hard and I was just a busy day and I was over on the night, started to just tear up. And it was like the first time in my career that I've like cried at work. And it was the, like one of our partners is a woman and she kind of came, they were super nice and it was fine. And then she came back there and she's like, I just, not that it's anything, but I just want to say like,

Crying at work is like not anything to like apologize for. She's like, it's not even like a big, like it's literally nothing. Like it's not even like a, it's okay, like we're gonna allow it. Like don't, we're not gonna think worse of you. She's like, it's truly like nothing. And she's like, I do it all the time. I've done it all the time. Like it's completely fine. And even just those types of like little things that I don't know if of a man would know quite how weirdly vulnerable it felt to cry in front of like a more powerful man. Like as a young woman crying in front of like a man at work.

And to have her just come and do that tiny little check in and being like, nobody's even gonna think about this anymore and it's fine. You're like, that is so important in having that type of female leadership.

Lisa Laronde (34:37.704)
And I agree, and I think the problem is we consider crying as a sign of weakness and that's really what I think just needs to change because it's an emotional response. It doesn't necessarily mean you're weak. It's just affected you in a manner that I think is really important and I think it's important that we show that we're vulnerable. I mean, we're human after all, and we all make mistakes. I think that that's one thing that I've recognized and we all need help and support to be able to be successful. So as a woman in law, do you believe that there's certain strengths?

Maggie Casey (34:42.574)
Yeah.

Lisa Laronde (35:06.824)
or perspectives that women bring to the profession.

Maggie Casey (35:10.862)
I mean, absolutely. I think there's so much about the female, quote unquote, typical traits that are so beneficial to being a lawyer. I mean, I think first and foremost, for me, working in employment, I think it's really helpful to, you're dealing with inherently, people's work is their dignity, right? That is so important to them. And our employment law, we have lots of cases written by judges that say like,

we have these laws that protect it because we understand that it's not just a mechanism for a job. Like working is like fundamental to like the human spirit and to people's like self -respect and identity. And so working in this area of law that that I under like when somebody gets like fired or they've been let go and they come to me, like it's not just about, all right, like what type of money can we get you? It's like, I get that this has been like a deeply jarring like experience that may or may not be affecting the way that you think about yourself. And I mean, as a lawyer, I know that, right? Like your identity is super wrapped up in.

in your job. And so as a woman, I'm able to both connect to that and validate that. Well, then also being like having the ability to be, and now let's like do these, these, these things. And if a client needs to have, you know, for example, an emotional moment, that's not, I'm not uncomfortable with that. And there's lots of men who are very socially aware that are able to do that. But I think that is one of the skills that I really have.

so much of the business. I mean, the other part too is so many of our clients now are women too, right? So they are working, they're owning companies, they're in the workforce, they're the C -suite execs, and they have all of those things. So being a woman and being able to serve your own clientele is also, I think, really helpful as well as more and more women are involved in the upper.

I mean, for example, family law has always been like female heavy in terms of lawyers, but I think the more that we see women in like commercial litigation, that's extremely, extremely helpful.

Lisa Laronde (37:06.152)
Yeah, I think that's awesome. So how can we become allies to advocate for human rights?

Maggie Casey (37:12.334)
I think the most important thing is that if you are, if somebody says that you have either hurt them or that you have misspoken or that you have done something that is been problematic is like really listening and that's a big part of law is listening to what your clients problems are and if they say, well, that's actually not exactly what happened or we didn't quite get it wrong, you make sure you're hearing what people are telling you because that allows you to really advocate.

for them and putting your own ego aside in that process. The best lawyers are the ones who can work alongside their clients to advocate for them instead of just trying to be a mouthpiece. And I think that works outside of the law too. So if you have a coworker that says, what you said, that comment, it made me feel, when you told me to be soft, that actually made me feel really small. And that's something as a woman I'm really sensitive about. I don't like being told to smile.

even these, well, I didn't mean it. Like I didn't, I just was saying like, I thought it was a funny, don't talk over that, listen to that and be like, oh, I never thought about that way. Like, I'm so sorry. Like I won't do it again. And then move on. And those are the skills that you have to use as a lawyer. But I think you don't, that just makes you a better advocate in general when you're talking about sensitive things like human rights and that you might not know because you, it is so intrinsic to like the.

experiences of that person. You might not know what it's like to be disabled, to be whatever, all of those things. And so that, if that makes sense, I think that's one of the big things that I use as a lawyer. And I think generally makes us better advocates in the human rights sphere is really putting aside ego and really listening when somebody has the courage to speak up.

Lisa Laronde (38:46.44)
I think that's awesome. So we like to end each episode with what advice would you give your younger self? So I don't know if you're going to give your 12 year old self some advice or.

Maggie Casey (38:53.582)
I'm like, can somebody give me advice? I keep thinking about that. I'm like, what if I was 30, what would I be telling me right now? Because I feel very confused. I'm always like, ugh.

Lisa Laronde (39:03.688)
Or maybe what advice did you wish somebody would have given you to prepare you? Because I do think it's a really huge thing for this generation to come in. Because I agree with you with what you said is, you know, I had all these hopes and dreams for this younger generation coming up. But then you get into this workforce and you're like, holy crap, it's like nothing's changed. So then I'm afraid that we're going to taint the that you go like this is really the way we have to manage ourselves in order to be successful. So.

Maggie Casey (39:11.662)
Yeah.

Lisa Laronde (39:33.384)
I guess I'm just looking for what advice would you have liked to have heard?

Maggie Casey (39:39.086)
I think too, maybe the advice that I hope will hold true. And so maybe I think what I'm thinking of is as I come into this workforce, it's not you. If you feel like somebody is underestimating you, it's not because you are too sensitive or because you are not smart enough or because any of the things that you've done. If you feel like that comment made you feel small and they don't understand you or that it was because you were a woman, do not let that.

Like that is all probably true. And like, you don't need to go and fight every fight because you have to be practical, right? You have to conserve your resources for the ones that are best. But what I am sticking with is like, don't let that like make you be different, like from who you like are and who you want to be and like what you think your skill sets are. And so that's something that I'm hoping also like holds true that if I keep doing that, that that will be successful and like trying to.

say like, it will actually be a little bit harder than you think. I think that's something that I've realized is that like, it'll be a little bit harder than you think we have a little bit more work to be done in reality than you do. And it's small and it's minutiae. Nobody's like telling you, you can't get pregnant anymore. I mean, really some people are, but for the most part, but it's littler things and don't like let that feel like that's your problem. Like that is still the system that needs to be changed and you are not like wrong for that and keep working on it kindly. I mean, I think.

You be honest and be kind. Like when you're telling somebody that that hurt my feelings, do it with a kindness, do it with like a sensitivity to that, to them as well. And don't try to keep that in perspective that it's not you. And I think that's something that would have been maybe nice to have heard. Although I don't know if I would have believed it until I was there, but I think that I try to tell myself now, like, it's not you, it's the system.

Don't let that make you feel small and don't let that stop you from doing what you think is the right thing to do and trusting your own instincts. And I really hope that that, you know, in 10 years and 20 years, you know, whatever, when I'm partner of my own firm, that that is something that I like worked and is would be good advice and that I was glad I told myself.

Lisa Laronde (41:46.696)
That would be awesome. So, Maggie, your courage, your compassion and your dedication to standing up for and helping others is remarkable. It inspires me every single day. And it shows that together we can work to create a country where the rights and dignity of all are not only respected, but protected. Thank you so much for joining us today on the Powerhouse Project. And I can't wait to see what you will accomplish. I look forward to celebrating your continued success. And I'm hoping I'm at your partner party.

Maggie Casey (42:12.366)
Yes, you will be there. Thank you, Lisa. I mean, I've looked up to you for so, so long. And so I'm, your success truly feels like our success. And that is like a true blessing. And so I'm so grateful to know you and to get to look out for you and to have you pave the path for us coming up. It's really a blessing.

Lisa Laronde (42:16.008)
Oh.

Lisa Laronde (42:31.56)
Oh, that's awesome. Thank you. I look forward to your generation. Take on over the world. We need you. Thanks, Maggie. You're awesome. Well, well.

Maggie Casey (42:37.23)
Thanks Lisa, thank you so much. I will.