Meg Mathes: Creating an Inclusive Workplace for Transgender Individuals

Lisa Laronde  0:03  
Welcome to the powerhouse project, a podcast empowering and celebrating women, and more importantly, an opportunity to share our stories. I'm your host, Lisa Rose. Today, I'm excited to welcome Meg mass, a red cell refrigeration and air conditioning mechanic, a journey person and a gas fitter make. Thank you so much for joining us today.

Meg Mathes  0:21  
Thank you for having me, Lisa.

Lisa Laronde  0:23  
I was just thinking about when I heard you speak at the OGC, A, the Ontario General Contractors Association in Quebec, the Canadian Association of Women in construction, and how impressed I was with you and how some of your stories were just so inspiring, and how much of an advocate you are for people in the trades. And you've worked and volunteered in Alberta. And I've always found it interesting that the Alberta stats for women in the skilled trades has been the highest in the country. And I'd like to come back to that point, hopefully today. So that maybe you can give me some insights of why you think that that is, or maybe things that we can do in Ontario to be able to model that. But let's start with how you actually first became involved in the trades. Yeah,

Meg Mathes  1:02  
I have a bit of an interesting story, I left home at 14 years old. So a little bit earlier than then many folks. And I had to work to support myself. So I found employment at Burger King. Because I could work whatever hours and whatever shift I ended up on the night shift. And at the end of the night, when we were done with everything, we would clean all the equipment and and that's when we'd usually find something wrong with it. So my instruction was to call the repair company. But I've always had a very mechanical mind. And I found myself trying to fix things myself. So the repair company found me as a bit of a threat and a bit of an opportunity. They offered me a job in the skilled trades, and I and I took it.

Lisa Laronde  1:46  
Well, that's exciting. You left home at 14 at 14.

Meg Mathes  1:50  
Yes, wow, did you live on your own or part of it was to do with my gender identity and me exploring it and trying to talk to someone about it. And they didn't feel safe with my family. I wasn't able to work through that with them. And I ended up being in the psych ward. So I was in psychiatric care for about six months. And we started talking about my gender identity. And and they were recommending some pretty strong things like shock therapy like conversion therapy, I just got really worried. So I ended up saying, you know, I'm it's just a cry for attention. I hit it all away again. And I said I was just acting out. And after that I ended up being in foster care for six months. And then I was 15. Almost 16 Old enough to to work. So I found employment at Burger King and lived on my own. Wow.

Lisa Laronde  2:42  
That's incredible. So you are an open transgender woman and an advocate. Can you tell us a little bit more about your journey? Absolutely. So

Meg Mathes  2:50  
I knew that I was transgender. I didn't know that was a term. But I knew that I was transgender. About by the age of five, I tried to come out several times like around 10 years old again at 14 going at 18 again at 30. And and finally did when I was 41. When it all came down to it I was driving home with my my spouse from Father's Day event of oddly enough on Father's Day. And I came out to my smells while we were driving in the car. It was that fight flight or freeze moment where I just felt all this pressure, you know, what do I do? I need to be authentic to myself, I need to figure this out. I've spent my whole life hiding this and masking this. And I just I need to figure out what what it all is. So I came out to my spouse on Father's Day in 2020. And then to my children later on that year in the fall, and started making plans to come out socially like publicly and professionally as a transgender woman. And I did that on March 12 of 2021. Lots of people said to me, like why now? And why did you wait? If you waited so long? Why do it now why not just just carry on, but it was just that drive that I needed to be authentic, I needed to be real to myself and and above all else in the world. I needed to walk this line and see what it's all about. And

Lisa Laronde  4:14  
I think it's so important. I think it's so important that we share our stories so that people understand that that you know you're not alone. I didn't realize it was so it's only been three years, I guess.

Meg Mathes  4:24  
Yeah, yeah. I just had my three year anniversary. That's

Lisa Laronde  4:28  
awesome. Congratulations. Do you feel like you're treated differently now in the workplace? Yes.

Meg Mathes  4:33  
Actually, that that was one of the biggest surprises to me. And that happened right away. It was a Friday when I announced to everyone at work that I was transgender. And on Monday when I came back to work as Megan, the very first meeting I was in it was it's just stereotypical behavior. I was I went from being listened to, to being talked over in the meeting. I went from, you know, having my opinion count and be valid to people questioning it. And a gentleman actually picked up on one of my suggestions and use it as his own right afterwards. And I was just floored. I'm like, I can't believe I had like, all three of these things happen in one go in one meeting on my first day.

Lisa Laronde  5:19  
That's hysterical. I tell the story all the time about being in the boardroom. And I don't think people understand that situation in the boardroom, where someone takes exactly what you just said, and and says exactly the same words, it's shocking to me that that happens. And my comment back was You must like the sound of your own voice, because you said exactly what I just said. And I had an executive coach who had said, obviously, you know, there's got to be better ways to, to say that when he said, The problem is, everybody around the table then thinks that that behaviors, okay. And that's what I think we need to stop. And I know that it's not, it's not like, you wake up in the morning and say, I'm going to over talk, you know, any women that I encounter in the day, but it's so interesting how it happens. So did you feel supported by your employer at the time, um,

Meg Mathes  6:00  
well, it was a bit of a mix. So three out of the first four people I told about planning to transition, three out of the four shared it with someone else without my permission. So that made me pretty gun shy, in early days that I couldn't trust them with disclosure, then I ended up having a chat with our CEO, Brad, and he really assured me he, you know, he, he told me that I have his support, and that he will do everything he can to try and help support me in this process in the organization. And he said, You know, I, I hope that the organization will support you, I'm going to do everything I can to guide that. But I hope that we can demonstrate that to you as well. So that really meant a lot to me knowing that right from the top I was supported and, and there wouldn't be tolerance for for inappropriate behavior.

Lisa Laronde  6:50  
I know when we did our equity 101 training, they were saying that the number one employment for transgender men is construction. And he was saying, if you don't think you have a transgender person within your organization, you're wrong. And that just means that you haven't provided a safe enough environment that they feel comfortable enough coming out.

Meg Mathes  7:11  
Yes.

Lisa Laronde  7:11  
Do you know is that is that accurate?

Meg Mathes  7:13  
I would assume that's very accurate. I don't know for sure. But transgender people in Canada make up point two 4% of the population. So it's like a quarter of a person. So at Mater Niagra, we have about 3000 employees. So there's there's maybe seven individuals in our organization who could be transgender, statistically, I don't know of any other than myself. So you know, it just shows how small the population

Lisa Laronde  7:42  
is. Gay, it's incredible. Are there lots of support associations available?

Meg Mathes  7:46  
There is there's a really great organization here in Calgary called skipping stone foundation, and that's what they're centered all around is transgender and gender non conforming individuals and, and supporting them from from childhood right up through to adulthood, and they've actually done a lot of work nationally to help support transgender folks right across Canada. That's

Lisa Laronde  8:08  
awesome. So you've done a lot of advocacy and some volunteer work. If you struggled, I guess for so many years. What would have helped you throughout that time period?

Meg Mathes  8:17  
Yeah, that's a really good question. When I look back, I've always had two driving passions in life, and one is to help people and the other one is to always keep learning, I need to keep upgrading my my skills and knowledge. And I always need to be doing something that's helping others. And I think in the absence of being able to be my, my true self, and show up that way in the world, I always tried to be the best version of myself that I could be. If I tried to be kind and tried to keep growing and learning I figured then what could people say of me, and if they ever found out the truth about me, I hope that they would see that I was the same person before that I am now I just look a little different.

Lisa Laronde  8:58  
Really? In what what should that matter? I still don't understand why that has any bearing on our conversations. So how do you balance between being an advocate for transgender rights, but also maintaining your privacy and your own boundaries? Because I think that that must be very difficult that but I would think that at some points, you would like to have your own privacy and just live your life the way that you'd like to live it without having to be an example or a role model to people.

Meg Mathes  9:25  
Yeah, I think I spent all way too much time worrying about what other people felt. So I'm kind of at a point now where I just don't really give a shit anymore. That's good. I can't be bothered with it. And and there's such a lack of authentic representation and transgender voices being listened to out there that I thought you know what, I feel comfortable in this space and I'm willing to educate and to share you know, the questions that come up in people's minds or that pop up into my mind. I like sharing stories about them. and sharing some knowledge around it. So I feel quite comfortable doing that. And you know, my advocacy is all based around education. I'm not going out and protesting and doing stuff like that I, that's just not my style. And that's not what works for me. But starting off with education, and just trying to help people and hearing an authentic transgender voice, I think is really important. But just like with with anyone in any situation, there's information that is private, and there's questions that we wouldn't ask. And one of the most common ones that ends up coming up is, you know, what's in your pants. And that's just as appropriate for someone asked me as it is for them to ask you. Exactly. It doesn't matter. And it's not important.

Lisa Laronde  10:39  
I 100% agree. And I think the more that we talk about it, and the more that we normalize the conversations, I think the easier that it does get for people. So given the fact that you worked in a predominantly male environment, what were some of the biggest challenges that you faced? Well,

Meg Mathes  10:52  
a lot of it was centered around knowing that I feel different, and I didn't feel in alignment with my gender that was assigned to me at birth, I really struggled. And it was tough, because this is where my skill set was, you know, I I found a career in the skilled trades. And I was really good at it. And and I kept, you know, seeing some women around in the industry, but but not a whole lot. And I just kept wishing and hoping that someone would go before me, every company I worked at, I kept looking in their HR system, if I had access to it to see if there was any policy around transgender or gender diverse people and, and what it would look like to support them coming out, but I never found it, I never found that other person who had the courage to go before me, and I just had to do it. And you know, I had a lot of friends, I had a lot of male allies. And, and you know, I think ally ship, as you and I were talking previously is really important. Minority groups will stay minority groups unless they have allies and Ally ship to to help lift them up and help support them. So I had a tremendous amount of male allies who have supported and helped me along the way and realize that, that not a lot is different other than the name and, and things look a little bit different. Yeah, exactly.

Lisa Laronde  12:09  
So tell me a little bit about your current position as a diversity, equity and inclusion professional.

Meg Mathes  12:15  
I spent about 12 years out in the field as a trades person. And I spent another 12 years in management positions and this opportunity came up to look after Diversity, Equity and Inclusion. And I jumped on it, our CEO was even concerned about me taking on this role, fearing that it might be a bit of tokenism with me recently having come out as transgender, but I assured him that it's something that I was deeply passionate about, and that I could I could pour in a lot of my knowledge and experience from being in the skilled trades to this role in the HR side of the business.

Lisa Laronde  13:09  
I talk a lot about that as well, just the tokenism when I said you know what, at some point, it's okay to be the token woman in the room, or on the board or whatever, because what happens is we need representation. So it's what you do with it, you know, sometimes we're given the opportunity because of either what we look like or who we are, but it's what you do without opportunity, I think that's going to make the difference. So people have said to me, Well, you're just the token woman, I'm like, Well, I'm okay. It's what I do with it now. And then maybe the next generation coming up, can look at it and say, hey, I can be the CEO of a company, I can be a board member, they talked about this broken rung. And whether it's in the skilled trades or in leadership roles, what happens is when they get to this age that they're either want to have children, if they so choose to do that, they come out of the workforce, because they either can't stay in the skilled trades, or then they get overlooked in these leadership. So now you don't have anybody, you know, the next in line coming up into these senior level roles, which is why I think di is so important, because we have to look at ways that you know, we're inclusive for everybody, I believe strongly that we'll be more profitable as businesses, if we have a diverse workforce, because there's no other way to look at it. I think when you when you look, statistically, if you have women in your executive, you're 30% more profitable than companies that don't. So that to me, says a lot.

Meg Mathes  14:22  
And women make up 50.9% of the population in Canada. So they are actually the majority, but, you know, still systemically held in a minority position. So yeah, you're absolutely right. The being that token at times being that person, I'm happy to take that space, you know, I I'm the space of one transgender person being here, and I'm happy to take that space.

Lisa Laronde  14:47  
And women represent 50% of the population but in skilled trades, we're only representing 5%. And so maybe we wouldn't go back to the Alberta question is I know Alberta, I think they were like at seven or 8%. So why do you think a bird has been so successful? I mean, I guess is not really successful, it's only seven or 8%. But obviously much higher than the rest of the country that what do you think that they've done differently?

Meg Mathes  15:05  
I've had the privilege of working with Alberta apprenticeship, I actually volunteered with them for 18 years and held different positions in their grassroots committees that helped support the different trades. And then finish off with six years as a board member with Alberta apprenticeship and, and having that grassroots involvement, where where there were committees of the trades workers out in the field and in industry, communicating back to the government about what's what's going on what's working, what's not working. I personally believe that that's really helped set things up for success, I got to meet a lot of great women in the trades, who helped support and that narrative, and have gone on to to build organizations like women building futures, who specifically geared towards driving successful women in the skilled trades.

Lisa Laronde  15:54  
And I know in Ontario, now we have women on site, and they've just started to get together once a month. And then it's whether it's two people or 40 people, and I think now they're getting it's nice that they get to connect with one another, like you and I were talking a little earlier is I think we're doing a good job of attracting women into the industry, we're just not doing a very good job at retaining them. And that's because we have to change that the culture.

Meg Mathes  16:18  
Yeah, you're absolutely right. Unless we change that culture and in the organization and change the way that that women are treated, they will leave at the same rate that they're coming in, and we will never have a net increase. That's why I think that diversity, equity and inclusion efforts are so important. And it's about setting the table and making things safe and supportive for for those minority groups so that they can thrive in the organization. And I

Lisa Laronde  16:44  
think that's why it's important that we share stories that people understand that the harassment, discrimination, it still exists. And in Ontario, there have been no human rights complaints from women for harassment, discrimination and construction sites. And we've started to talk a little bit about that. And they're saying now part of it's our process is how we handle things. And it goes to mediation, which is great, because you don't want to necessarily to go to court, but then they settle. And when they settle, none of those stats get recorded. And so then you think that that you're alone, or the other example I had was if you're part of a union, and you complain, at times, you get put to the bottom of the call up list. So if this is your job, and this is your financial, financial livelihood, you know what happens when you don't you're not getting a paycheck. And all you did was complain, or people say, you know, you're difficult to work with, or I don't want to work with her, I don't want to drive with her. Because what if I say something that's inappropriate. But I think education is really the key for us to be able to change that narrative. And I really feel like we have to. So your stated mission is to inspire, mentor and empower the next generation of skilled trades professionals and leaders. So can you just take me through a little bit? Like how are you accomplishing that? Or what are you doing? Yeah,

Meg Mathes  17:55  
I think that's been just a lot of my career from from the moment that I got my first journeyperson certificate in refrigeration, i i joined Alberta apprenticeship in the committee's and I've always worked to try and give back, you know, looking back on my on my life on my experience, you know, not having finished high school and having to get my GED so I could get into the trades and stuff, I had to work really hard to be able to get into the, into the skilled trades. And it's been a wonderful career for me and my family and provided for, for most of our things. I think just representing and giving back, you know, I've always gone to career fairs and tried to have representation and talk to young folks about coming into the skilled trades. University isn't the only path and talking to young women and their parents who are trying to steer them away from the skilled trades and, and show them that things are changing. You know, you don't have to be someone who's big and burly, we use tools and, and buddy systems to lift equipment and things. You know, like there's people come in all shapes and sizes, and I've seen all of them in the skilled trades. And it's about that diversity, like you were saying it makes us it increases our performance, increases problem solving abilities, we have new perspectives, new ideas. The other thing as well is that our clients want to be able to see themselves in the organizations that they choose to partner with. So having diversity in our organization helps support us having a diverse client base as well. So just really, really focusing on all that, you know, my my work right now in Dei, I think is some of the most meaningful work that's that's giving back to to the next generation of skilled trades professionals. And I couldn't be more excited about the work that I'm currently doing and what's in front of me.

Lisa Laronde  19:39  
That's awesome. Do you think your experience as a transgender woman has influenced your perspective on gender roles and stereotypes?

Meg Mathes  19:45  
Oh, very, very much so. Yeah, yeah. And me and my spouse talk about this a fair bit. I think we're kind of fortunate because like, me and her never thought of pink jobs and blue jobs and stuff like that. We just always did that. Job that best suited who we were and what we like to do, or what we didn't like to do the least. I'm really at a place now where I challenge the the gender binary. Like if you and I are both women and identify as women, we are both very different in so many ways as well. And you can take the average woman, what what is an average woman, what is an average man, and I believe it's, you know, sexual orientation and gender identity and gender expression are, are all things that are on like a sliding scale, and people choose to take the pieces that make sense to them, and that they identify with, and leave the rest. So I, I think it's really challenged my perception of all that, and I, I welcome myself to be challenged by it, because I, I still have bias, I still have stereotype and I welcome being challenged on that stuff. And

Lisa Laronde  20:52  
I think that's really important that people understand we all have bias. And, you know, I tell the story that I was approached, if I had, you know, eight women to go into in senior leadership roles that could participate in this course. And I was, I was all excited said, Absolutely. And then she said to me, how many of them are white? And I was like, oh, oh, they all are. But and that's my own, you know, my own bias. It's not. And I tell people, it's not like I woke up in the morning and said, I'm only going to hire white women. That's not what I said. And it's just, that's what happens. So as long as we can talk about it, and recognize that this is part of what we do, we can actually start to correct it. How can we be more supportive and inclusive of transgender people?

Meg Mathes  21:29  
Yeah, being transgender, it's not a single event where we transition, I've, I've been transitioning my entire life until the day I die, I will continue to be transitioning and, and figuring out what that is to be transgender means that your, your gender identity is not in alignment with the sex that you were assigned at birth. So either assigned male at birth, or assigned female at birth is the terminology we like to use, you know, and then being cisgender is another terminology. And that means being in alignment with your gender identity. So just bearing in mind, you know, updating yourself on education, understanding some of the basics of of sexual orientation and gender identity. Again, we're we're not trying to couple those things together. And the acronym LGBT does a poor job of that, because it pulls them all together, where LG and B are all sexual orientation, and T is gender identity. So you know, educating yourself, hearing from authentic transgender voices, I think that's a really big thing that we can do to help normalize the conversation. There's only point two 4% of us, but we exist, and we're out there. And if you're one of my fellow transgender folks out there listening to this podcast, you don't have to have the courage to stand up and share some of your story as well.

Lisa Laronde  22:50  
I know that you've shared a story with Morgan earlier about a plumber that you had met who was struggling with language. I was wondering if you could share that story with with our listeners. Yeah,

Meg Mathes  23:00  
absolutely. I was working on a learning journey for work about microaggressions and micro affirmations. So for those who don't know, microaggressions are small slights against someone, it's crossing the street when there's a person of color walking towards you. It's saying Oh, wow, you're actually really pretty for a transgender woman. It's stuff like that they're they're small slights that typically go unnoticed, but but it can be like death by 1000 paper cuts when they build up over time. And micro affirmations is just the opposite. It's it's small things that we can say to affirm each other. I call you by your name, Lisa. And that's affirming, I'm using your correct name, you share your pronouns with me and I use them that's affirming. I pulled together a cohort of individuals from across the organization to run through this training course. And I was soliciting feedback because it's, it's still in development. And I really, I love the vulnerability and the courage of this. This individual who who gave me feedback, and he said, You know, I'm just a dumb plumber. And I said, Well, you're you're a lot more than a dumb plumber, but okay, I'll hear you out. And he says, I am terrified of this topic. I am scared shitless because I know that I have bias. I know that I have stereotype. I know that I'm going to screw up and say the wrong thing. And I'm terrified. I don't want to be in the position and in the situation because it because I know I'm going to screw up. So you know, he said as much as I appreciate you inviting me to this, the whole topic just terrifies me. So that that really hit me hard. And it really stuck with me that you know, again, here's here's a male individual who wants to be an ally wants to help support and show that, that he's open to different ideas and and furthering himself. But he's he's terrified and I've really taken a focus on that and sometimes I realized that I'm I'm racing a little bit as I increase my knowledge and I learn more and more that the the organization and other folks may need to catch up. So it's, it's a good reminder that we're all in a different place. And we need to have patience and understanding and, and help to educate if you have the time and space to do so. And

Lisa Laronde  25:20  
when we started on our di journey, and I agree with you, I call it a journey. It's, it's, it's not a destination, because we're learning every single day. One of the first things we did was pronouns, we have businesses in the US, and they were saying, you know, do we do we have to use the pronouns, like, is this mandatory? And I said, No, it's not mandatory. But but let me explain why we're using pronouns. Now. It's nice that you can actually say, I can tell you, I, you know, my pronouns are she, her, they, that's how I would like to be referred to. But if I truly want it to be him, then you should be referring to me as he and like, that's my prerogative. It's like saying, use my name, which is exactly what you said. And maybe it has, it has no effect on you, or you're comfortable, because you're either no assists female or sis male, but maybe other people aren't. So now it makes them go, Oh, look at that, you're, you're including me, now, I can understand that. It's this this journey. So I think education is just so important, and that we can't, which is exactly we just said we have to be a little bit slower introduction to it so that people understand where we're doing this, so that we all understand that we can move forward and we can work in this, you know, inclusive, safe environment. How can we provide a more safe environment for transgender people in our workplace? Is there anything that we can do

Meg Mathes  26:32  
some ways to help people feel more safe at work and out in society, if you're in a position of power or authority, trying to help have gender affirming policies and making sure that gender affirming language is being used, like, like we talked about with pronouns and stuff, there's a lot of power in that sharing your pronouns when you when you're introducing someone. I've had lots of cisgender, folks and allies telling me that they're really uncomfortable with the pronouns, they think it seems foolish, and it's not authentic to them to state their pronouns. But I just share with them what you what you kind of mentioned, like, it opens the door, if I say, Hi, my name is Meg Mathis, and my pronouns are she and her, it opens the door for you, if you were maybe uncomfortable, or if you know that you're the person in the room who is maybe non binary, maybe looks a little more androgynous, it makes a safe space for you to show up there. Having gender neutral washrooms available is very important. The the new building code is recommending that, that we denote things by like toilet and sink, or toilet urinal and sink like they're, they're trying to remove the agenda from it as well, and just state what's in the room. That's, that's what we're going in there for.

Lisa Laronde  27:48  
Very good voice. Yes.

Meg Mathes  27:50  
One other thing that that you can do, especially for transgender and gender diverse folks is, is looking at gender affirming benefit, a lot of the provinces and territories do cover certain things, but don't cover other things. And, and I can say that this process has been extremely expensive for me even with the coverage from from the provincial government to help out along the way. So looking at that looking at leave allowances, you know, if we need gender affirming surgery, we might be out of the workforce for up to three, four months, before we can return. The other really big thing is sexual harassment prevention training, and then and it should be mandatory and, and should be required for everyone to participate in a small bit of that just to open their eyes. And, and the reason why we're talking about is because it's still happening, and still happening every day, on all kinds of job sites. And probably the most important thing that I think you could do at work to help drive safety is what gets measured gets done. So adding leadership, dei competencies, and I'm not saying like, shoot for the skies and tell them that they have to do all these things and learn all these things, or else. But you know, join an affinity or employee resource group meeting, participate in a dei learning journey, you know, it could be something small, like that, just to show that they're making an effort and making a step in the right direction. So

Lisa Laronde  29:11  
we usually finish up our podcasts with you. The one question is, what advice would you give to your younger self?

Meg Mathes  29:16  
Yes, I talk to young men quite frequently. With the voice of my own head and, and the thing I always always say is, you know, don't worry, you'll be okay. It'll be all right. I spent so many years, so many moments thinking it wasn't. I tell myself that you'll find a family who loves you, spouse who loves you, that you can live your authentic life, that you're lovable, and that you're able to love. That's

Lisa Laronde  29:43  
a very, very nice message. So make thank you so much for sharing your story with our listeners today. It's so important that we continue to share stories and experiences so that people know that they're not alone on their journey. Please continue to inspire, mentor and empower the next generation of skilled trades people nationals and leaders. Thank you Lisa. You can learn more about today's guests in the show notes and at the powerhouse dash project.com. And if you know anyone in the skilled trades you'd like to be on the show, you can send in a voice note or a message on the website. Follow and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts.