Shelley Gray: Women Redefining Skilled Trades

0:03  
Welcome to the powerhouse project podcast, a podcast celebrating and empowering women, and a place for us to share our stories. I'm your host, Lisa Marone. Today, I'm excited to welcome Shelley Gray, the CEO for skilled trades BC. She's a strong advocate for Equity and Diversity and understands how to navigate the old boys club, something that I have in common. Thank you so much for joining us today, Shelley.

0:25  
No, thank you so much for having me on how to have this conversation.

0:28  
I know we met briefly in Calgary at the onsite event. But I felt at that point in time that we had a lot in common and, and I'm excited to just hear some of your experiences and see how we can actually continue to be advocates for women, particularly in the trades as well as in leadership. Tell me a little bit about yourself, and how did you get involved in the trades?

0:47  
Yeah, you know, it's interesting, because it was something that I don't have a background in, in any way, shape, or form. And I really, though love both passion of the work within skilled trades. And just kind of drawn to the organization after a long career in in private sector and wanting to do something that sort of supported the public good, versus just really trying to push towards something that was profit driven, really. So that was kind of what kind of drew you to the work. And I've absolutely loved it, it has been a great run over the over the past 10 years. And really enjoy both having the ability to impact change and change for people to do something actually supports the economic viability in our province, too. So it's been a really, really great run the past 10 years.

1:30  
I guess you're the only woman CEO for skills. Yeah. Is it something that you when you saw the job? You're like, hey, this would be perfect for me, or was there some hesitation to apply for it?

1:40  
Oh, yeah. Is that how it rolls? Yeah, I think really, there was I was the Chief Operating Officer at a time when the role came open. And it took, I think, a female wise board chair, who said, Why don't you consider this role? And I said to her at the time, I'll do it on the interim. But I'm, you know, it's not not my role. Really, in the long run. I don't see myself in it. And yeah, I think my think about that. Now, that was five years ago, like, why was that? And I think it's a lot about that sort of that model of you can't see you can't be it. And I think when I looked around, because there, you know, it had always been predominantly somebody who was male, and came with industry experience, you know, from the skilled trades, and I had neither. And I think also at the time, if I'm honest, Lisa, I was also I was a mom with two young boys, they were 10 and 12. And back to that you can't see you can't be it, I had never really seen a CEO who was also trying to thrive at being a mom. And those two things were really important to me to be able to do both while or else, I didn't want to do it. So it took a while for me to get my head around it. And I really did look to other female leaders in those roles. And I reached out to many of them even just for coffee and just said like, you know, tell me about your experience in this role. It took me a while, but you start to then start to go, hey, you know what, I think I can do this. And then it also becomes almost empowering. Yes. How can you do it and because there's no mold, you get to make the mold. And then that kind of was like, Oh, this is kind of fun.

3:08  
I had the same issue of my kids were older. So I had a little bit more flexibility. But I won the top 100 Recently, which was last November, and for the executive leadership and so I was with a group of women and having young children was a big big conversation for a lot of them. You know, it's interesting, some of them had, you know, day nannies, night nannies weekend nannies because they couldn't they couldn't balance everything. And I said we've got to figure out how we balance that. And I talked to Robin Pathak so she's at p&g, and just interesting to hear different stories for different from women of how they navigated these waters. And, and she was lucky enough to be able to work four days a week, she had had twin girls, and then a third child. And she says, you know, that worked for her. Not all employers are going to do that. And not all women want that. Like how do you navigate those waters? And, and I think it's important that we find, you know, that community that you can reach out to people and find out what they did or how they navigated through that. Yeah,

4:01  
absolutely. And I think yeah, it's incumbent on us as women leaders to talk about it more and normalize that more and that it can be a times a struggle, and a balance and messy and all those things and all that's okay. Yeah. And I think it's also about recognizing, there's two things there's the what can we do to sort of change the sort of the corporate environments etc in terms of policies and, and all of those things, that's all important. And then there's also the what can you do in the moment for yourself and to me, it was really important to find my inner circle of people just to keep my own sanity at times, that you could kind of rely on or you know, kind of be honest about where you're at with things or whatever and really, intentionally build that right because, yeah, it's tough, but I think you're right, we've kind of almost maybe a bit to disadvantage of young leaders said you can do it all but not so shown the mess of it. My house looks messy at any time, how

4:59  
to navigate that. What do you do when your kids are sick? Yeah, God all these meetings are people that are relying on your How do you balance that? How do you even not take on the guilt that comes with that? When I got my CPA, the executive director, the time was gentleman, and he got up there. And he was with his wife. And he's, he's like, I'm missing my son's grade 12 graduation. I was like, I don't know if I would do that, like, exactly, I have a stand and like, I know that you have requirements of the job of things that you have to do. But I think we have to change that culture that says it's okay, if you know that you have a standing. I'm president of the Canadian Association of Women in construction, I said, Listen, I have a very busy job. And my job comes first at this point in time. And then I have a daughter who's in Singapore. And so there's times that I will not be available, as long as we're in agreement, that I cannot attend some events that, you know, would be expected as the president, I will take on the role, but with under those requirements. So I think we need to change that narrative. Yeah. And I

5:53  
think, to what you just said, though, as importantly, so from the perspective of, then you start to model it. So like, when you have that conversation, you model it, then it helps you know, those listening to it, say, hey, well, maybe I can do that too, or to some lesser extent, or whatever. And it's kind of seeing those opportunities I was putting up, I was on a Equity Diversity Inclusion committee, and it was with a bunch of different sectors together. But the meeting was at eight o'clock in the morning, and I was looking around at the young moms on the was on Zoom was during the pandemic that when the committee started, and I thought like, this is ridiculous, like most of these people have kids. And so I said, Joe, especially for Diversity Committee, like we not started at noon, like ironic, right? 10 or something, and it benefits people like, Yeah, but it took saying it and then you kind of make that pathway that much smoother for those around you. And I think, yeah, it's important. And that goes back to that, modeling it and then it helps others and I really try to be intentional, not even in my own organization about saying, yeah, that works, perhaps leave a forklift, pick up my son or whatever. Because then I think, okay, if they see me doing that, then they know they can do that. And that's for everybody. I mean, you know, women or otherwise, but it's really important. And I'm, it's never lost to me, as you move up and rolls the importance of the obligation to get back into doing those things to hate it for others.

7:07  
Definitely. And that really hits home for me about, you know, you have to model the behavior. So we have a parental leave. And I was saying we're in road construction. So obviously, predominantly male LED industry. And so we had one gentleman take, I think he only took a month. But the backtalk that was happening was shocking. And I started to say, Okay, this has to stop, we offer the benefit. It's important that it's available to everybody. And we have to start promoting that. So we have to actually say, hey, you know, he's taken apparently, isn't that great, this is what we should be doing. And then for my senior leadership team, I actually said to them, you need to go to your child's whatever it was graduation and kindergarten or holiday party, or whatever it is, and then come back and show people pictures that this is what you did today, you took an afternoon off. And this is what you did, because otherwise, it's really all lip service. There was the one I think he was a co founder of Reddit, he married one of the Williams sisters, and he was the one to say they had a parental leave. And when they had their first daughter, he actually took it. It was three months or something he said was the hardest three months of his life. But he actually said, if we put the benefit out there, I have to model the behavior. Otherwise, everyone's gonna go, yes, it's a benefit. But you can't really take

8:13  
it. Yeah, yeah, that's fantastic. And it's absolutely, it's interesting,

8:16  
the part of a board, somebody else was just telling me the same story. But the board meeting was in the summer, and it was started at a clock. And she actually said the same thing. Like, I have to drop my kids off at camp at summer camp. If you want more women to be on boards or join committees, we have to be a little bit more accommodating in terms of the times that we offer them. And it's the same thing you said it's a virtual board meeting, does it have to be an HR to virtual meeting? It doesn't make any sense. It's not like you think about you're like, Oh, we'll get it done first moment of the day. Let's just get it, you know, in an overt way. Yeah,

8:43  
exactly. No, I agree. Yeah, the modeling, and it's really important and paving the pathway for others for sure. Absolutely.

8:49  
The more we talk about it, the more people understand that this stuff, you know, continually exists. So do you still find, you know, for women in the skilled trades, because you have, I think very high numbers for women in apprenticeship programs, NBC? Yeah,

9:02  
we do. It's grown man. And we've got a long way to go. So when I, you know, say what we've had success in

9:08  
Ontario. Exactly. Let's

9:10  
put it all in perspective, for sure. But I think that there's something about momentum, that certainly helps for sure. And I think that's definitely what we have happening. So when I started, we were below 5% for women in trades, when we look at and right now we're close to 10%. So definitely higher numbers. And we've got certain trades, like our electrical trades and things like that we're actually starting to see, you know, we're hitting a tipping point. Yeah, that they often talk about that 20% Your tipping point. So we're getting better, we're not there, but we've got a long way to go. And I think you know, that's we start to see that culture change and those things kind of start to happen. So lots of work get to like no doubt about it, but certainly getting a lot better. And I think you know, my own experience in terms of leadership and being in male dominated industries, etc. really has helped me put that front and center it's not a you know, off the side of the desk. It's like, you know, this is important and I think in the world we're live In terms of labor shortages, and, and all the things you can't negate, you know, half the population in terms of that piece. And I think what inspires me always I think about that is there was this woman I met one day, and she had a young son, and she was living paycheck to paycheck and a retail job. And then she'd gone into one of our programs. And you know, she's was graduating, and she'll make over $100,000 a year for the rest of her life. And she said, you know, this is a game changer. And she was just like, so excited. And I was like, yeah, like what it did for her son? And they're like that. Yeah, absolutely. And so that's what kind of keeps me going and gets me excited about the work that we do.

10:33  
What did you do differently? Or what advice could you give other provinces to be able to get their numbers up? I know, Alberta also had very high numbers, when they started their apprenticeship program. Yeah,

10:44  
we've done a couple of things. I think part of it was putting it very much at someone's jobs. So it wasn't often inside of people's desks, we actually hired a director for equity, diversity inclusion. And we really made sure that everything we were developing was also being reflected in things we were doing internally in the organization's we hadn't walked the walk. And that was one of my biggest things from an integrity perspective is like, we can't tell others to do it if we're not doing it ourselves. So we did a lot of work to make sure we were doing things that demonstrate that we were trying to be diverse and inclusive and advancing it as well, and then helping others to lead others. So we did things like with the BC women trades, being more than a bystander program, and it's targeted towards construction leaders and male leaders and trades. But we made all of our male leaders in our organization go to it. And it was like, you know, it's gonna be beneficial to everybody. So things like that, that really helped to demonstrate the work. And then I think it comes back to a lot around, yeah, what gets measured gets done. So really kind of keeping on top of those numbers and making sure we were kind of focusing on that, and okay, are we seeing change? What do we need to do? Or is this working? You know, what else should we do? And kind of keep at it that way? But it really I think, you know, start with having it be a role and partner within our organization versus a piece of somebody's job.

11:55  
Do you have numbers for women? are we retaining them in the trades? We've done a pretty good job of attracting women. The problem now is they get in? And obviously, as you say, there's not a lot of women. So you don't have any representation. And you get in and it's basically a culture shock, I

12:09  
think, exactly. And I think that is the struggle is that yeah, there's the the attraction, but then how do you retain, we do a couple of things around with some of our partners around leadership programs for women in trades, things like that mentorship, Ally ship, so more and more, we try to use those programs as a way to help connect people because I think people have a safe space and kind of somebody that they can kind of reach out to, I think is really key and important AR and never forget a story I had heard from one individual that they talked about how much Starbucks had played a role in their life when they were in the early days of their career within the construction sector. And you know, what it was was the foreman on the job had realized that they didn't have a clean washroom for this individual. So they said, whatever you want, there's a Starbucks across the street, go over there have a break, and you can use their facilities. But they became at the time kind of their safe space, they come in, they would talk to them every day, have a conversation about her kids and whatever else. And she said, I would never have survived that difficult job, but had I not had that. And she said, I will be a Starbucks customer for the rest of my life from that experience. And I'm not, I have no shares in Starbucks. It really, to me just reminded me of how important whether it's we're talking about women and trade, you know, Ally ship, you know, having people that you can reach out to, and creating those environments for people is just so key and important.

13:23  
Yeah. And I think when I started in my role, and I did a similar thing that you did is I started to reach out to people that that I knew in the industry and there there really wasn't a lot that I knew of at the time, I felt like I was on this journey by myself. You know, I always say I'm a very, very confident person. I'm smart I've business acumen I'm very passionate what I do, I was so thrown off my game. And I had started in finance. So I knew only people that I worked with, it was just shocking to me this this change that came over and I remember talking to one of the owners going, I don't understand, like what's changed. And he was like Lisa, your threat now when you were in finance, you know, they've listened to you, you know, maybe take your ideas, do whatever. But now that you're, you know, an operational executive, now you're a threat. And I had teams trying to get me fired, I actually ended up going to an executive coach, because I just lost my confidence. I was like, Maybe this isn't right. For me, maybe I'm not the right person for the position. So I imagined somebody who, you know, I think I have all this experience. And I'm confident that I have all that self doubt. I can only imagine walking onto a job site. Oh, yeah, you're the only woman you're treated like shit for the most part. And you have no outlet.

14:27  
Exactly. Yeah. And I think that's where, you know, similar to you, that sort of being the pointy end of a sphere as you have in your career and I have in mind of being in different environments, in different industries and things like that. It really helps you kind of understand the challenges that come with that and the challenges that those people would face as well. And it really it is a challenge. I mean, I think things are getting better. I think about even on the corporate side of things. You know, when I started my career, I was talking to a female executive and kind of just trying to you know, I was kind of like that sponge. You're trying to grab whatever you can and can learn and I remember them talking to me about like The old boys club that existed and you know how to navigate that. And they talked about if you're going to go to a meeting, kind of wear pants don't wear a dress and all those kinds of things, right. And I think about that now. And I think the reality is some things have changed for the better corporate world skilled trades, whatever you're talking about, things have gotten better, I think we don't just acknowledge and try to find ways to work around an old boys club. I think in many cases, these being dismantled and moved away. And I think sometimes men are our best allies, and supports too. So I think that that kind of thing has changed, I think we're much more accepting that people are going to show up as their authentic selves, and they're going to dress for the dress, and that's fine. So I think there are lots of things that have changed over the years, but there's still a long way to go, kind of both good and bad, really corporate or otherwise,

15:43  
like talk to a lot of young women and I still hear stories that sometimes they have wedding rings that they put on, because that's a better option for them, sometimes they take them off, because that's a better option. Sometimes they change their hair and, and just go you know, it'd be nice to get to the point that you could just show up as your authentic self and, and be, you know, accepted for who you are. That's one of the things you know, I try really hard to model. Sometimes people ask me for advice I go, the unfortunate part is, you know, you're not my age, you haven't gone through my trauma, and you don't have my ownership group. So it's difficult for me to say, do this in this situation. But I think if we start to speak up, and we start to tell stories, you know, I went through all of this, and this is how I came out the other side, I think it just gives people that confidence that they can actually weather some of the storm. What I tried to do this year was trying to highlight just women that wouldn't normally get out to do speaking engagements. Because it's interesting. We're a small network, but not everybody knows about us, which I find is interesting. And then yeah, do you have recommendations or advice for how we get more women seen or celebrated? Or? Yeah,

16:46  
I think they're a that's interesting that you say that, because it is a challenge. I think we're also so bad at self promotion, or any of those things, which inherently doesn't help. But just going back a second piece about the authenticity, and how important that is, I think that's really where I often when I talk to young leaders, I try to talk about too, in the sense of like, I think that's where your empowerment comes from, the more that you can be authentically, you know who you are, and show up that way. You know, I think leadership can show up with a smile and warmth. I think leadership can show up with humor, all those things. And so they have never forgotten was I was reading something after Hillary Clinton had lost the presidency. I don't want to get into politics. But it was really interesting from a women in leadership and politics perspective, because it was after she had lost the election. And so I'm gonna take a picture of her walking with Bill Clinton in the woods, you may recall that after the election, she stopped and did a selfie with somebody. And you know, here was this woman who, you know, she had like, no makeup on, and she was kind of casually walked over her husband and their dog. And her approval ratings and favorability ratings with women actually went up, like skyrocketed from that photo, versus who she was trying to be before. And just that piece, to me, it's said so much about authenticity, how important authenticity is, and really how that helps to empower people. And I think your piece around how do we get more people to do that, I think it comes from that empowerment, creating more space for leadership to look different in different ways that it doesn't have to show up in a suit all those things. And then really helping people kind of find their own power to to come forward and to take on things and really supporting them. And I think, you know, women these days are very supportive of one another. And I think you want people to shine and just go for it. So as much as I think

18:24  
that's very important, we've just recently had a big announcement that we've been acquired by a private equity. So I had my little speech. So we are, this is a family run business, up until today, actually. And so I had my speech all prepared. And I, as I start to talk, and I was like, you know, I started here, 10 years ago, all of a sudden, it's like this hole, and I'm just like, I'm like, Oh, I'm not going to do this. And I looked at one of the authors, I'm like, this is way more difficult than I thought it was gonna be. And I, you know, I just said, I really wanted to thank the family that they entrusted me with, you know, their family business, but it really did well at this emotion. But lots of people came up to me and so obviously haven't seen me in that capacity. We're just like, wow, like you made me cry, at least I was was a very, very emotional time. You know, we have to show that side of that who we are. And I think that's what makes us good leaders is we do have empathy. And you know, we do have feelings, and I'm not afraid to make a decision and change my mind. And I tell people that all the time. I need a senior leadership group that's going to challenge me, I don't want you walking into my office rolling your eyes and going, Oh, my God, that's going to blow up. I would rather you say, challenge. Yeah. And I said, I reserve the right to say, No, I'm going to take this route anyway. That's what I think makes us good leaders and good members of a team is to be able to challenge one another. I just personally don't understand that why you wouldn't want to have more opinions and to have people challenge and make you think about things and go hey, I didn't think that that was an option. We have as part of my executive team. We have our Vice President of it. And he brings such a different perspective that I wouldn't have thought and there's a huge just brings a huge, huge amount of value. Yeah,

19:54  
I agree. It makes a huge difference getting that diversity and I think women are really good as leaders to be able to to bring that out in others and create an environment around that fosters that culture of lots of diverse opinions and said she was interesting when I first started this role, because I had seen my predecessors and how they had managed some of the challenging conversations because it's, it can be a very divisive industry in terms of how steel trade should be done. And you know, people have very strong tickets at times. But what I recall was, there was a lot of sort of fists pounding, right? It was like, Well, I want this, well, I want this, you know, for me, I thought, like, how do I even approach this because I'm never gonna have my fists on the table about something that just wasn't who I was, or my style, and how do I do this differently. And so for me, I really spent a lot of time trying to just build relationships first and get to know people and we talk about, you know, the kids and vacation and all these other things and kind of get that relationship trust strong enough to then have conversations. And so now we have conversations, and many times they disagree with where we're going, what we're doing, or what our priorities are. But you know what, at the end of the day, we have to respect and I think for many cases, even with some of the male counterparts I have with an industry, it challenges them to find new ways to have those conversations to share diverse opinions. So I think we've actually all benefited from it. And I think that's stuff where, you know, the secret sauce of women in leadership is actually really, really good. And I think it'd be really helpful.

21:13  
And I agree, and I think the more that we have representation, because I do think that that's part of our problem, I think we need more women on boards. Do you have any advice on how we can get more women on boards? Do you think it's a matter of just talking about it? Or do you think that it's just the we don't have the extra time,

21:29  
you know, I think it's about creating space. And being intentional about I was just stopped one of the boards that I'm on, we were just talking recently about skill sets for some new positions. And I flatly called out kind of the lack of diversity in our board. And in many respects, it's something you know, made people a little uncomfortable for a second, and then we had a good conversation about how to do it, I think the other thing that's really important to do is that when you do see somebody come on to the board is really kind of reaching out your hand and kind of helping to mentor or guide them. I had gone to an event where there was a new board member to something I'm part of they were at that meeting, and then they were joining the next day for the meeting. And I could tell they were nervous, and you know, kind of a bit of their element and all those things. And I sent them an email and said, hey, you know, if you need anything at all, I'll have any dumb questions that ever don't feel, you know, hesitate to reach out. And they replied back and they said, Yeah, actually, how's the question? So they really appreciated that. And some of it was like, What do you wear to the board dinner? Like joy? Are you shopping a suit? Do I really like even things like that? And so it's like, creating space for like, that's not a silly question. Like, we all have those moments, and it's okay. And so I think it's both trying to get people on to boards and creating space for them. But I think also, you know, it doesn't have to be a formal mentorship. I mean, just to reach out and say, if you've got a question, don't hesitate, because I'm sure Lisa's, you found throughout your career. And I've certainly found it. I mean, if you say to somebody, Hey, can I you know, buy a cup of coffee somewhere close to where you work or live for half an hour? There's very few and far between people that are gonna say no. And, quite frankly, if they say no, they're probably not worth your time anyway. So I think, yeah, just reach out to people. And don't be afraid, I think, yeah, there's an onus on young leaders to do that. And there's an onus on those of us to also, you know, open doors and create space for it as well. So it's kind of on both sides. Really,

23:09  
when I do any talks, and I just say to people connect with me on LinkedIn, I can guarantee you, if you're a woman, I will connect with you. I will give you the time. It may be in September, but I will give an hour of my time. Because I just think you're right. It's so important that we actually give back again, I go back to I really didn't have anybody that I could turn to to just have a conversation. I tell the story, Jenny Coco, she was the co owner of Coco paving in Ontario, and I tell the story by trying to get to her so her brother was her brother and her that ran the construction company. Everybody knew Rockies contact information. Nobody knew Jenny's I actually found a pm that knew her EAS. So I went through the EA just said this is who I am. This is my new role that I'm in. Just wanted to know if I could meet her. It was just at the very beginning of COVID. It was a hands down. Yes. Some of her advice. I wouldn't, you know, she was the one that you know, she had this really hard, long road that she traveled and like should work really hard and long. I was just like, Jenna, we got to change this. Like I shouldn't have to do all that to be in my role. But she gave me some really, really good advice. But I always go back to I had multiple hours with her. But it was really, really nice just to have somebody that could give me advice. Just listen to me tell me that I was doing the right thing. Here's some things that would work or here's some of the challenges that I might encounter. But I have to laugh to about the woman who asked you what to wear for the board dinner. So I was recently elected to the Ontario road Builders Association. I'm the only woman on the board. And I think there's only been four of us that prolong Exactly. I think there's only ever been four women ever on the board. And so it was just looking at the other day the picture and there's I think there's like 27 of us. There's a lot of us, but I was like, Oh my gosh, luckily it was wearing a navy blue suit and a blue shirt because I'm center but everybody's in like dark suits. So I would if you can imagine if I was wearing a pink dress or whatever I would have just not that I care but it would have been really, really obvious and you know, sometimes I think you just don't want that.

24:56  
Yeah, I agree. And then I think there's times especially in roles like when you You're on that data board where you got an edge, right? And you got to judging and you can do I think, as you get older you get or I don't know, not older, wiser Yeah, you get better at knowing how to do it in a bit of a more of a playful manner at times in a way that just kind of like, well, what can we do differently here,

25:14  
the one talk is we did the same thing we did a was called equity one on one training. So everybody that gets hired under one of my companies goes through the it's all mandatory training now, because what I learned through that training, where I was doing all this talking about being a woman in construction in underrepresented group, I learned that I actually come from a place of privilege that I have a voice, and I should be using my voice for people that don't have voices. And then I talked to a lot of my male colleagues about it saying, like, I come from a place of privilege, but like, there's certain things I don't know, and there's certain missteps that I make. So we just have to start talking about it and learning and then not repeating it, and then we can be part of the change. Yeah,

25:48  
exactly. And I think to your point, even with that, making sure that we help your male allies, etc. Understand what their role is, or what they can do. Because I do think at times, you know, at work for some who they're happy to do something, they don't know what to do. So yeah, sometimes it's us helping them understand this would be helpful, or we can you look at China do these types of things, and just helping them create the space for them to get sometimes, you know, it's awkward for them in terms of what do I do? And how do I make sure I do in an authentic way, that's actually beneficial. And the

26:17  
rules have changed. And so I think that's exactly we have to figure out how we navigate it. I know that they put in Ontario skilled trades as part of the elementary curriculum, but they didn't give the teachers any tools to be able to teach it. So we have all these like great ideas, we just have to actually help each other navigate and, and continue to tell stories. Exactly. And I just think it's very cool. So we usually end our podcasts with the question is, what advice would you give your younger self?

26:40  
Ah, yeah, that's a that's a hard one. I think it's about recognizing that you can have it all, you're not going to say have it all at the same time. And it's gonna be messy at times and all those things and it's okay. I think I wish I would have just told myself, it's going to be okay, a little bit more, I think you think you have to know everything you think you have to do everything perfectly. And it's like, they always say that we when women look at job descriptions, they feel like they have to have everything or else like I can't apply. Yeah, and I think I would have just delved into the messiness a bit more and been okay with it. You know, I'm starting to model that I hope for other people within my own organization and elsewhere to say, Yeah, you're gonna see me the, you know, a CEO and a mom, and it's gonna be at times messy and disorganized. It's all okay. Yeah. And just go for it.

27:23  
Shall we? Thank you so much for sharing your stories with us. Please continue to inspire women. And please, let's continue to have women pursue careers in the trades. I think it's so important now.

27:32  
Thank you. Thanks for having me saying,

27:33  
you can learn more about today's guests in the show notes. And that's powerhouse dash project.com. If you know of any women in leadership or the skilled trades who should share their stories with us, please send in a voice note or a message on the website. Following subscribe wherever you get your podcasts and thank you so much for listening.